People obsessed by categories: "Soundtracks are not classical music!!!"

[steve ridgway]

Fate dragged me back into this thread yesterday when I bought this CD in a charity shop without realising that John Williams' Close Encounters Of The Third Kind - Suite and Star Wars: Main Title had been appended to the original recording of The Planets.





I can't imagine why Decca released this - you only need to play the whole CD through once to realise just how much Williams derived from the Holst composition. Playing the Ligeti pieces (Requiem, Lux Aeterna, Atmospheres) from the album 2001: A Space Odyssey (Music From The Motion Picture Sound Track) first would be even more revealing (plus one might compare the five note alien contact phrase in Close Encounters with the Sunrise from Also Sprach Zarathustra).



The Williams pieces may be quite acceptable as soundtrack music to be heard very occasionally while watching the movie, possibly reminding some listeners of these classical pieces, but all we have to do is imagine the reaction of the critics if they hadn't been used for soundtracks but had instead been presented as original classical music compositions (if any orchestra would actually have performed them). In fact I don't think it's a good idea to perform them in concert or play them on the radio as they could corrupt one's memories of the genuine classical pieces. Fortunately one listen was not enough for anything of them to stick in my mind, so if I don't play them again I won't diminish my enjoyment of Holst and Ligeti.

[Luke]

It's the Stravinsky one (from the Tatooine music) which staggers me in its audaciousness. But, as I said, I know these are more complex issues than simple plagiarism.

[Karl Henning]

I can't imagine why Decca released this

Not for artistic reasons, pure marketing.

[steve ridgway]

Not for artistic reasons, pure marketing.

But they didn't mention Star Wars or Close Encounters on either the front or the spine - how would any movie fans come to look at the back to see them?

[Luke]

It's the Stravinsky one (from the Tatooine music) which staggers me in its audaciousness. But, as I said, I know these are more complex issues than simple plagiarism.

Just to clarify, I mean this, that I posted earlier on, from 1.22

[Karl Henning]

But they didn't mention Star Wars or Close Encounters on either the front or the spine - how would any movie fans come to look at the back to see them?

Hmmmm.

[W.A. Mozart]

Just to clarify, I mean this, that I posted earlier on, from 1.22

Yes, but no one cares about that part of the score. Speaking about Star Wars, John Williams is mainly praised for three pieces: The Imperial March, Duel of the Fates and Battle of the Heroes.
In the videos I've watched (including yours) which speak about the plagiarism of John Williams, the masterpieces are not touched... so, I suppose that we can consider them as original compisitions of the american composer, unless someone is not able to prove the opposite.

So, unlike what @Karl Henning says, there are valid artistic reasons to praise John Williams.


Finally, I'd like to add my 2 cents about the subject.

I have noticed a similarity between the slow part of the overture of the opera "Lo sposo deluso" of Mozart and the "Hymn to the Fallen" that John Williams wrote for "Saving Private Ryan".

What do you think?

Now, listen to the overture at the minute 04:24.

@steve ridgway

[steve ridgway]

Just to clarify, I mean this, that I posted earlier on, from 1.22

Crikey to all of those!

[steve ridgway]

Yes, but no one cares about that part of the score.

Exactly! Because it's a bit of soundtrack music, not a standalone classical piece.

[steve ridgway]

I have noticed a similarity between the slow part of the overture of the opera "Lo sposo deluso" of Mozart and the "Hymn to the Fallen" that John Williams wrote for "Saving Private Ryan".

What do you think?

I really don't know, neither appeals to me and I couldn't concentrate on them for long .

[Luke]

Yes, but no one cares about that part of the score.

Oh it's just the bits that you like that matter, is it? I care about this part of the score, I think it sounds just great (unsurprisingly,  given its model)

Speaking about Star Wars, John Williams is mainly praised for three pieces: The Imperial March, Duel of the Fates and Battle of the Heroes.

By you. Actually the impression I get is that the most celebrated music of all in the Star Wars music are the Holst-based Martian one and the Tchaikovskalike one

In the videos I've watched (including yours) which speak about the plagiarism of John Williams, the masterpieces are not touched... so, I suppose that we can consider them as original compisitions of the american composer, unless someone is not able to prove the opposite.

Again, the masterpieces as you select them, to suit your argument. The two pieces I mentioned above, which I think are the most iconic of all (based on how often I hear them quoted and referred to)  certainly are touched on. However, I actually don't think the ''Imperial March' could exist without Mahler and Shostakovich, in particular, and I think the second of those two, given how often his orchestral march music evokes the heartless brazenness and cruelty of the Stalinist 'empire under which he suffered, is a very appropriate point for Williams to refer to texturally/rhythmically/orchestrally/melodically. i.e. compare the Williams Imperial March to something like the 'invasion' music in Shostakovich 7.

Edit, for clarity. This doesn't mean Williams is copying Shostakovich here. It merely means the similarities are strong, and that presumably Williams knew and meant that his music was therefore in dialogue with this particular stylistic region of the classical. tradition. I'm all for it. It makes total sense in the context of his space opera film score, and embeds it in something more terrestrial, which is surely the point, just as the iconocgraphy etc. of the Empire is so obviously reminiscent of Nazi iconography  .But he's not speaking his own style here, just as the costume and set designers aren't.

[SimonNZ]

The music of the cantina is diegetic music, so it serves a different purpose in respect to the score. The score is entirely rooted in classical music, but to play classical music in a cantina would be out of place.

In the film its diegetic music, but what is it on the album? If this album was listed on a site as classical and sold to me as classical - as you would like - then what am I to think of the cantina music? Am I meant to think that "Jub Nub" at the end of the Jedi cd is meant to be a modern "Ode To Joy"? What of all the other diegetic music that appears on so many other soundtracks you'd like to see marketed as classical? And if the Men In Black soundtrack gets sold to some credulous buyer as classical then what are they to make of Will Smith's rap?

Actually, don't bother answering, I don't really care.

[Luke]

Classical Rap.... ah, if only I could think of some portmanteau word that could describe the sound of this imaginary genre...

[W.A. Mozart]

Exactly! Because it's a bit of soundtrack music, not a standalone classical piece.

So, how do you explain this data of Bachtrack.

The most performed composers in 2023 were (in order of numbers of perfomances):
1. Mozart, W.A.
2. Beethoven, Ludwig van
3. Bach, Johann Sebastian
4. Brahms, Johannes
5. Schubert, Franz
6. Rachmaninov, Sergei
7. Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich
8. Strauss, Richard
9. Schumann, Robert
10. Ravel, Maurice


However, speaking about LIVING composers, the list is as follows:
1. Williams, John
2. Pärt, Arvo
3. Widmann, Jörg
4. Adès, Thomas
5. Glass, Philip
6. Adams, John
7. Gubaidulina, Sofia
=8 Shaw, Caroline
=8 Chin, Unsuk
10. Clyne, Anna



Classical soundtracks are the most popular form of contemporary classical music. If you want to relaunch classical music, you have to play them in the concert hall, together with the classics of concert music.

On the other hand, if the classical music institutions will follow your snobbery, classical music will lose popularity, day after day, because they will disconnect with the real world.

[W.A. Mozart]

Oh it's just the bits that you like that matter, is it?

Again, the masterpieces as you select them, to suit your argument.

Look at this playlist in youtube, which contains the full soundtrack of "New Hope".

"The Dune Sea of Tatooine" has 702'296 views and 2647 likes (0.38% of people who listened to the piece reacted with a like).

Now, look at "The Throne Room".

552'783 views and 4'424 likes (0.8% of people who listened to the piece reacted with a like).

We're speaking only about the score of the first episode.

Now, look at the imperial march (which was composed later, for "The Empire Strikes Back").

2.7 milions views and 33'358 likes (1.24% of people who listened to the piece reacted with a like).

Finally, Duel of the Fates.

151'418 views and 2'750 likes (1.82% of people who listened to the music reacted with a like: the percentage of positive reactions here is 5 times greater in respect to "The Dune Sea of Tatooine").

Furthermore, if sou search in Youtube "star wars the dune sea of tatooine live" you find ZERO live perfomances.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=star+wars+the+dune+sea+of+tatooine+live


If you search "star wars duel of the fates live" you find many different live performances.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=star+wars+duel+of+the+fates+live

The first one is this one.

It's clear that John Williams would survive as an artist even if you removed "The Dune Sea of Tatooine" from his artistic output.

The two pieces I mentioned above, which I think are the most iconic of all (based on how often I hear them quoted and referred to)  certainly are touched on. However, I actually don't think the ''Imperial March' could exist without Mahler and Shostakovich, in particular, and I think the second of those two, given how often his orchestral march music evokes the heartless brazenness and cruelty of the Stalinist 'empire under which he suffered, is a very appropriate point for Williams to refer to texturally/rhythmically/orchestrally/melodically. i.e. compare the Williams Imperial March to something like the 'invasion' music in Shostakovich 7.

If we speak about style, and not about melodies (chord progressions, or whatever...), Mozart is a product of Haydn et al, but he's still considered as one of the greatest composers. Why? Because the essential point is to create emotionally powerful music with high craftmanship, not creating new styles.

But he's not speaking his own style here, just as the costume and set designers aren't.

The same can be said about Mozart. His music is basically a better version of the music of Haydn. Same style, but more inspired melodies.

John Williams, like Mozart, will be remembered for his emotionally powerful music combined with craftmanship, and no one will care about the fact that he didn't create new styles.

[steve ridgway]

So, how do you explain this data of Bachtrack.

The most performed composers in 2023 were (in order of numbers of perfomances):
1. Mozart, W.A.
2. Beethoven, Ludwig van
3. Bach, Johann Sebastian
4. Brahms, Johannes
5. Schubert, Franz
6. Rachmaninov, Sergei
7. Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich
8. Strauss, Richard
9. Schumann, Robert
10. Ravel, Maurice


However, speaking about LIVING composers, the list is as follows:
1. Williams, John
2. Pärt, Arvo
3. Widmann, Jörg
4. Adès, Thomas
5. Glass, Philip
6. Adams, John
7. Gubaidulina, Sofia
=8 Shaw, Caroline
=8 Chin, Unsuk
10. Clyne, Anna



Classical soundtracks are the most popular form of contemporary classical music. If you want to relaunch classical music, you have to play them in the concert hall, together with the classics of concert music.

On the other hand, if the classical music institutions will follow your snobbery, classical music will lose popularity, day after day, because they will disconnect with the real world.

You mean more people want to listen to music from films they love than have an interest in late 20th century classical music .

[steve ridgway]

John Williams, like Mozart, will be remembered for his emotionally powerful music combined with craftmanship, and no one will care about the fact that he didn't create new styles.

It's far too early to tell; in a century or so someone might compare Williams' music against contemporaries such as Schnittke, Penderecki, Takemitsu etc. but at the moment its reputation is distorted by association with those very popular movies.

[Karl Henning]

If I believe something, just repeating it makes it true, right?

[DaveF]

The same can be said about Mozart. His music is basically a better version of the music of Haydn. Same style, but more inspired melodies.

That comment might be also worth posting on the Haydn composer thread, for those who have stopped following this one.  I  imagine that it might engender at least 30 pages of replies.

[ritter]

That comment might be also worth posting on the Haydn composer thread, for those who have stopped following this one.  I  imagine that it might engender at least 30 pages of replies.

Which I am afraid would progress as follows: OP says "A", other posters say "have you thought about B?", OP repeats "A", other posters "and what about C?", OP again answers "A", and so forth, ad nauseam "A", "A!", ""A!!!"