Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Florestan]

the theological level of the ode doesn't feel higher than a gathering of drunkards might come up with.

He, he, exactly.  We're all drunk, ergo we're all brothers whose sins have been washed away by beer. Tochter aus Elysium Waitress of the "The Elysium" Pub, another round here! 

[prémont]

He, he, exactly.  We're all drunk, ergo we're all brothers whose sins have been washed away by beer. Tochter aus Elysium Waitress of the "The Elysium" Pub, another round here! 

Spot on.

Was Beethoven's music to the ode just meant in a humorous and ironic way. And how to combine it with the expression of the preceding movements?

[Cato]

Wow!

How long did you stretch out 'O Freunde'? 

Probably not very. I only ever performed this solo once, and was nervous. Never got any negative feedback so hopefully it wasn't rushed. 

In the early 1960's I listened to a performance for the first time, in which "Freunde" was pronounced "Fraaay-uuuun-de." 

At the time I did not know German.  When I listened to other performances, I wondered about that initial experience, and years later, when I was learning German, I really wondered about it!   

Unfortunately, the recording has faded from my memory!

[LKB]

...Unfortunately, the recording has faded from my memory!

Based on your description, I'd call that a win. 

[Madiel]

In academia it can be very important to produce original research.

Unfortunately, in certain fields this does not come with any solid requirement to be correct at the same time.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/cat-interrupts-pastoral-symphony/



PD

p.s.  Obviously, the cat has impeccable taste. 

[calyptorhynchus]

Leaving aside Zizek and his thoughts, I've always been amused by the lyrics of the Ode to Joy when I imagine how different cultures would react. For example at 'Seit umschlungen Millionen/Diesem Kuss der ganzem Welt' (umlauts not working on the iPad today!) I always imagine an Englishman saying 'steady on old chap, is there really any need for that!'

[LKB]

Leaving aside Zizek and his thoughts, I've always been amused by the lyrics of the Ode to Joy when I imagine how different cultures would react. For example at 'Seit umschlungen Millionen/Diesem ( should be " Diesen " - LKB ) Kuss der ganzem Welt' (umlauts not working on the iPad today!) I always imagine an Englishman saying 'steady on old chap, is there really any need for that!'

Male choristers have a love/hate relationship with LvB in this passage.

On the one hand, it's about as heroic as  anything your average chorister will ever sing. On the other, it's VERY hard to stay focused on the phrase, because it's immediately followed by the toughest bass passage of all, with repeated high Fs that are usually the upper limit for amateur basses.

But if you are secure and can relax, it rocks. 

[Mandryka]

Astonishing! PI and period technique: you have been warned.

Booklet here

https://www.highresaudio.com/en/album/view/wyjkao/narratio-quartet-beethoven-early-string-quartets

There is definitely a new wave of HIP - this idea


. . . perhaps we have also lost something along the way? The ability to feel how groundbreaking and visionary this music was in those days. My colleagues and I feel that using instruments that are comparable to those of the time has helped us enormously in getting somewhat closer to the surprise, the bewilderment and the rapture that the musicians in Schuppanzigh's quartet must have felt when they first came face to face with the newest and most innovative chamber music of the day.

makes me think of what Bjorn Schmelzer says about Machaut and Brumel.

[Que]

Booklet here

https://www.highresaudio.com/en/album/view/wyjkao/narratio-quartet-beethoven-early-string-quartets

There is definitely a new wave of HIP

Great! We desperately need a superb HIP LvB SQ cycle.

this idea


. . . perhaps we have also lost something along the way? The ability to feel how groundbreaking and visionary this music was in those days. My colleagues and I feel that using instruments that are comparable to those of the time has helped us enormously in getting somewhat closer to the surprise, the bewilderment and the rapture that the musicians in Schuppanzigh's quartet must have felt when they first came face to face with the newest and most innovative chamber music of the day.

makes me think of what Bjorn Schmelzer says about Machaut and Brumel.

There is a (profound) difference between the purpose of recreating the music as it was conceived, and trying to recreate the way it was experienced at the time of conception. Something which cannot, per definition, be achieved by the former approach. IMO the 2nd approach has nothing to do with historically informed performances but is in effect the (re)creating new music inspired by the old.

[Florestan]

There is a (profound) difference between the purpose of recreating the music as it was conceived, and recreating the way it was experienced at the time of  conception - something which cannot, per definition, be achieved by the latter.

Neither can the former.

There is no music at all except mediated through score or performance --- neither of which are the exact representation of how the music was conceived. Nobody knows, can know, or will ever know, what [insert name of a long since dead composer] truly and really had in mind.

[Que]

Neither can the former.

There is no music at all except mediated through score or performance --- neither of which are the exact representation of how the music was conceived. Nobody knows, can know, or will ever know, what [insert name of a long since dead composer] truly and really had in mind.

Your thoughts on this are well known. And formulated in those absolute terms, they are true of any music performed by any performer but the composer.  And even the composer might not be able to (re) create what was in his/her mind...

[Florestan]

even the composer might not be able to (re) create what was in his/her mind...

So true, as proven by Rachmaninoff's and Prokofiev's recordings of their own music: both of them significantly departed from their own scores. 

Music is always a thing of the present --- the present of the performer, that is.

[Mandryka]

Great! We desperately need a superb HIP LvB SQ cycle.

There is a (profound) difference between the purpose of recreating the music as it was conceived, and trying to recreate the way it was experienced at the time of conception. Something which cannot, per definition, be achieved by the former approach. IMO the 2nd approach has nothing to do with historically informed performances but is in effect the (re)creating new music inspired by the old.

The idea of the Narrato Quartet is that by using original instruments and an authentic playing style, they can recreate a bit of the original audience's experienced vibe -- because their music making confounds our expectations. That's to say your sense of HIP is contingently, in this case, my new wave.

[DavidW]

Critics contemporary to Beethoven also described his music as long, boring, and weird.  Should performers try to capture that vibe as well?

There is no way to capture the experience of hearing Beethoven for the first time because, unlike the audience of the past, we have not had a steady diet of nothing but classical-era music.  How can anyone who has listened to Ligeti, Messiaen, Bartok, etc. possibly hear Beethoven the way the audience did at the time?

It can't be done.  There is no way at all to capture that feeling of new, wild abandon FROM THAT COMPOSER.  In the past that has been an excuse to play slow music fast, solemn music dance like, etc. Hey knock yourself out, play it as you like.  But that is just playing it as you think a modern audience might like it, but that has nothing to do with the past.

I'm all for music performed on period instruments using the styles and methods known for that day.  I'm not into odd thought experiments.

[Florestan]

There is no way to capture the experience of hearing Beethoven for the first time because, unlike the audience of the past, we have not had a steady diet of nothing but classical-era music.  How can anyone who has listened to Ligeti, Messiaen, Bartok, etc. possibly hear Beethoven the way the audience did at the time?

It can't be done

This, absolutely.

[Florestan]

playing it as you think a modern audience might like it, but that has nothing to do with the past.

And this, absolutely, too.

[Florestan]

The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.

[calyptorhynchus]

Yeah, nah (famous Australianism), I think the really great music of the past continues to be absolutely astonishing. I can remember first hearing things in Haydn and Mozart as well as Beethoven that had me enthralled, and still do.

Very good music has this property, at least to people who have listened to it a bit, and listened to a range of it, that in its own terms it can still be highly impressive and striking regardless of all subsequent music. If this weren't true there would be no interest in early music and music of any period before the present.

[Florestan]

Good music has no age.