The Audiophile Debate

[71 dB]

Oohh oohh oohh.....

     My Fiio KA3 DAC just woke up and now flashes green, which means DSD playback. I tested with another file (24/192 flac from SACD) and it changed to yellow. Then I tried another DSD file and it turned green. Everything works as it should.

LEDs flashing in different colors is an old trick to make people think something sounds better. If there where clear audible differences, such visual indicators wouldn't be necessary.

Sound quality is created in music production, mixing and mastering. Digital music formats don't matter as long as they are lossy formats above about 200 kbps or better. It doesn't matter if it is AAC at 256 kbps, CD quality or 24/192 hi-rez. If the production, mixing and mastering was done well, the sound will be awesome.

[drogulus]

LEDs flashing in different colors is an old trick to make people think something sounds better. If there where clear audible differences, such visual indicators wouldn't be necessary.

Sound quality is created in music production, mixing and mastering. Digital music formats don't matter as long as they are lossy formats above about 200 kbps or better. It doesn't matter if it is AAC at 256 kbps, CD quality or 24/192 hi-rez. If the production, mixing and mastering was done well, the sound will be awesome.

    I don't want any reencoding going on whether it is audible or not. Now my DAC is working as intended. That was my goal.

    Most SACD remasters will evince no hint of the "loudness war" that ruined many CDs. It's not how good SACDs sound so much as how bad they don't sound. 

[71 dB]

I don't want any reencoding going on whether it is audible or not. Now my DAC is working as intended. That was my goal.

    Most SACD remasters will evince no hint of the "loudness war" that ruined many CDs. It's not how good SACDs sound so much as how bad they don't sound. 

Looks like I misunderstood your point. If your DAC is working NOW as intended, what did you do to it? Why didn't it work as intended before?

You wrote Your DAC "hates" you, but that doesn't tell me much about the technicalities of the problem...

I use simply the analog audio output of my Mac Mini. It is quite high performance imo. That's the good thing about digital audio. Even very cheap gear can be totally adequate. The output is connected to my audio amp which drives speakers or my DIY headphone adapter with crossfeed if I use headphones.

Most SACDs are classical music which never suffered from loudness war. The music that suffers most from loudness war is hardly at all released on SACD.

It is true that SACDs tend to have excellent sound quality thanks to top notch production (recording etc.), mixing and mastering. Multichannel support helps too giving an advantage compared to CD supporting only stereo.

[drogulus]

Looks like I misunderstood your point. If your DAC is working NOW as intended, what did you do to it? Why didn't it work as intended before?

You wrote Your DAC "hates" you, but that doesn't tell me much about the technicalities of the problem...

    I think installing Foobar2000 did the trick as it has a number of plugins for DSD input and output. I kept fiddling with them until I came up with the solution.

    On the DAC side I never got the control panel to install, so something is still wrong.

Most SACDs are classical music which never suffered from loudness war. The music that suffers most from loudness war is hardly at all released on SACD.

    I don't have a single classical SACD. They are all rock and jazz.

   

[DavidW]

I don't have a single classical SACD. They are all rock and jazz.

That is impressive!  I don't even care about sacds and I accidentally have loads of them.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I'm quite impressed how good well engineered analog can sound, and that includes the stereo LP. E. g. the Deutsche Grammophon Original Source series:



Of course cutting the laquer so close to the label is a challenge, especially for exotic high end vinyl playback equipment. I avoid those. I also digitize to 24/48 after the phono amplifier. If I didn't I could not play vinyl records with my main stereo, which would be a pity. So much for the purity of the analog audio signal 'round here.

How do you digitize...not familiar with this process as my preamp has a phono stage in it?

PD

[71 dB]

I think installing Foobar2000 did the trick as it has a number of plugins for DSD input and output. I kept fiddling with them until I came up with the solution.

    On the DAC side I never got the control panel to install, so something is still wrong.

I see.

I don't have a single classical SACD. They are all rock and jazz.

It is surprising someone on a classical music forum doesn't have classical music SACDs, but have rock and jazz. I don't listen to rock or jazz much and the little I listen to isn't available on SACD. I don't even know it would make sense. What is the point of having poorly recorded monophonic old jazz (say Clifford Brown) on SACD?

When I got into Tangerine Dream back in 2008 and started collecting their music, I noticed Rubycon has been released on SACD. My choice was between $30 SACD and $5 used CD. Of course I chose the CD! An oil sheik in Saudi-Arabia can pick up the SACD. 

[AnotherSpin]

I see.
It is surprising someone on a classical music forum doesn't have classical music SACDs, but have rock and jazz. I don't listen to rock or jazz much and the little I listen to isn't available on SACD. I don't even know it would make sense. What is the point of having poorly recorded monophonic old jazz (say Clifford Brown) on SACD?

When I got into Tangerine Dream back in 2008 and started collecting their music, I noticed Rubycon has been released on SACD. My choice was between $30 SACD and $5 used CD. Of course I chose the CD! An oil sheik in Saudi-Arabia can pick up the SACD. 

SACD is not about stereo, in is about quality. Jazz didn't end with Clifford Brown. See many Miles Davis' SACD releases, and not Miles only, of course. Bob Dylan, if we look for rock music. Etc.

[71 dB]

SACD is not about stereo, in is about quality.

What SACD really is about and why it exists in the first place is this: Sony wanted to cash-in with the bitstream archival format they had developed. That's the reason why SACD is DSD. That's a very good format for achieving music, because every bit has the same miniscule weight in the signal. random bit errors are very insignificant unlike in PCM.

In practice SACD are about quality too, because it is marketed as hi-rez. Better have some quality! The thing is the CD layer in a hybrid disc is audibly identical to the Stereo SACD layer. Only the multi-channel layer has advantage. In that sense it is not about stereo as you point out.

Jazz didn't end with Clifford Brown.

Certainly didn't, but some people like Clifford Brown.

See many Miles Davis' SACD releases, and not Miles only, of course. Bob Dylan, if we look for rock music. Etc.

Miles Davis died in 1991. How "SACD-ready" are even his last releases? The reality is a lot of this stuff is from the 70s and 80s and most of the time recorded, mixed and mastered on analog gear. Sony claims DSD can capture the sound on analog tapes better than 16/44.1 PCM (well, 24/44.1 PCM), but that's nonsense. Capturing those tapes on DSD for archival purposes makes sense, but consumers need only well remastered versions on CD quality (since this music is in stereo).

The Miles Davis era that I like is the "funk/fusion" era of early 70s. I don't care about what came before and after. On the Corner is my favorite Miles Davis album. Is it out on SACD?

Where SACD do excel is new multichannel classical music recordings of the last 25 years or so. That's why owning rock and jazz on SACD while not owning classical music makes zero sense to me.

[AnotherSpin]

What SACD really is about and why it exists in the first place is this: Sony wanted to cash-in with the bitstream archival format they had developed. That's the reason why SACD is DSD. That's a very good format for achieving music, because every bit has the same miniscule weight in the signal. random bit errors are very insignificant unlike in PCM.

In practice SACD are about quality too, because it is marketed as hi-rez. Better have some quality! The thing is the CD layer in a hybrid disc is audibly identical to the Stereo SACD layer. Only the multi-channel layer has advantage. In that sense it is not about stereo as you point out.
Certainly didn't, but some people like Clifford Brown.

Miles Davis died in 1991. How "SACD-ready" are even his last releases? The reality is a lot of this stuff is from the 70s and 80s and most of the time recorded, mixed and mastered on analog gear. Sony claims DSD can capture the sound on analog tapes better than 16/44.1 PCM (well, 24/44.1 PCM), but that's nonsense. Capturing those tapes on DSD for archival purposes makes sense, but consumers need only well remastered versions on CD quality (since this music is in stereo).

The Miles Davis era that I like is the "funk/fusion" era of early 70s. I don't care about what came before and after. On the Corner is my favorite Miles Davis album. Is it out on SACD?

Where SACD do excel is new multichannel classical music recordings of the last 25 years or so. That's why owning rock and jazz on SACD while not owning classical music makes zero sense to me.

Yes, On the Corner is released on SACD: https://www.discogs.com/release/9050042-Miles-Davis-On-The-Corner

You stated that most SACDs are classical music, which is obviously not true, you have been given examples to the contrary. You can go on if you want

[Florestan]

It is surprising someone on a classical music forum doesn't have classical music SACDs,

Even more surprising is that someone on a classical music forum doesn't post about classical music at all. 

[DavidW]

Even more surprising is that someone on a classical music forum doesn't post about classical music at all. 

Well he did post about Faure and Tchaikovsky not that long ago.  I think it is more like Ernie and Greg that have stopped posting about classical music entirely.

[Florestan]

Well he did post about Faure and Tchaikovsky not that long ago.  I think it is more like Ernie and Greg that have stopped posting about classical music entirely.

It's precisely Ernie whom I alluded to. 

[drogulus]

    When I no longer had anything to say I stopped. I admit that's unusual.

[71 dB]

When I no longer had anything to say I stopped. I admit that's unusual.

However you seem to have other things to say...

[Florestan]

When I no longer had anything to say I stopped. I admit that's unusual.

I refuse to believe that you have no reaction whatsoever when listening to classical music that cannot be put into words.

[DavidW]

However you seem to have other things to say...

None of which any of us understands!

[Henk]

None of which any of us understands!

@drogulus wrote a mini-biography of Jeff Beck some months ago.
He seems to prophetize on a world without cds. I don't really get that.

[Henk]

@drogulus I don't mind you're being around here. If it make sense to you fine, but maybe you can try to connect more.

Why prophetizing about a world without cds? Is that so important to you? Can't you see there's something to like about cds? I'm alright with your personal choice, but accept being an exception. Don't try to become rule. Nietzsche already warned for that.

[drogulus]

@drogulus I don't mind you're being around here. If it make sense to you fine, but maybe you can try to connect more.

Why prophetizing about a world without cds? Is that so important to you? Can't you see there's something to like about cds? I'm alright with your personal choice, but accept being an exception. Don't try to become rule. Nietzsche already warned for that.

    I like cds. I just bought one and posted about it. Over the years I've devoted much time and energy researching the best CD editions to add to my collection.

    Turning cds into lossless files doesn't denigrate the discs at all, it's just a very convenient way of searching for and playing music almost instantaneously. Nothing is ever lost, or under the sofa or in a box in the closet because I ran out of shelf space. It doesn't matter where the disc is, it matters where the music is.