Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Spotted Horses]

I see Hurwitz piling on to the PI Mahler 9, which is prima facie evidence in my book that it must be quite good.

I'm still waiting for the physical disk. Annoying I couldn't buy the download because they have done the silly trick of splitting the movements into innumerable tracks, as though they want people to have to hear a phutt every three minutes (the flac download is almost as expensive as the disk, so I thought I'd order the disk). Hyperion got into this bad habit, and so did Marco Polo/Naxos for a time; ridiculous, if you want to guide listeners through the structure then have booklet notes tying the sections to timings. I once wrote to Ted Perry to tell him this and got a typical Ted Perry reply. Lol

Really? What playback software do you use? I use Swinsian on MAC and it plays sequences of FLAC files continuously. (When I was using PC I used something else, don't remember now, foobar2000 maybe.)

[Brian]

I love portamenti!  Give me a good schmooze into a note anytime......

Same! Especially in Mahler. The Fourth Symphony wouldn't be possible without portamenti.

[Roasted Swan]

Same! Especially in Mahler. The Fourth Symphony wouldn't be possible without portamenti.

Joking apart - not to play Mahler with portamenti is just wrong so if you are a "critic" who unilaterally dislikes their use just don't listen to Mahler!!

[San Antone]

What I get from the negative reviews is that the PI 9th doesn't sound like Bernstein's or Karajan's big band sound and lacks other modern aspects.

For me, that's why I like it.   

[calyptorhynchus]

Really? What playback software do you use? I use Swinsian on MAC and it plays sequences of FLAC files continuously. (When I was using PC I used something else, don't remember now, foobar2000 maybe.)

I'm sorry, I'm not very audiophile, I just use the Music program on my Mac. I mainly use MP3 just to save on storage space, and because they sound fine to me (cringes as he waits for everyone to hurl abuse), but MP3s can't handle transitions, they put a phutt in unless it's a actual end of a movement. Flacs would be fine (if I convert them to wavs), but the flacs are almost as expensive as the disc so I decided I get the disc because I may get a chance to listen to it on the CD player at some point (I usually just listen to music on my iPad with wireless headphones while I'm doing Qigong or similar).

[JBS]

Joking apart - not to play Mahler with portamenti is just wrong so if you are a "critic" who unilaterally dislikes their use just don't listen to Mahler!!

I don't have a Twitter account, and won't make one so I can't read the thread, what does he say?  I dislike how both of them are skipping writing a formal review for just shotgunning out impressions on social media.

Let me copy/paste it

The Mahler Academy's sickly string portamento makes me rather queasy. If that's really how they played it in 1912 then I'm glad to be living in this century. The string sound's rather watery too, but there's plenty of passion so far.


The pretentious portamento continues into the 2nd movement. There's often more slide than there is note. On the other hand the whole orchestra is really digging into the music and this is viscerally thrilling in a way Abbado doesn't attempt.

The Mahler Academy horn player is really giving it some and the fruity bassoons are a joy. Also the flexibility of the pacing, with plenty of tempo changes, adds to the excitement. I don't agree with everything by any means, but there's not been a dull bar so far.

The blood-and-guts physicality of the playing in the 3rd movement is a welcome corrective to the over-etherialisation of many modern performances. The attention-grabbing portamenti is still really getting up my nose. Bruno Walter in Vienna this is *NOT*.

The finale almost boils over with feeling. This recording's biggest problem is it's marketed as some sort of bridge to the past, to the performing style of Mahler's time. I don't buy that for a millisecond but if you ignore that dimension it has tons going for it.

Ok I've reached the end of this recording. I have to say that the string portamenti alone is enough to rule it out as a general recommendation. However, it's also a million miles from the "pointless, aesthetically bankrupt" debacle David Hurwitz would have you believe it is.

Personally I'd rather rehear this historically woefully-inaccurate but otherwise stimulating performance than the critically sanctified but emotionally underwhelming Abbado at least five days out of every seven. I advise adventurous Mahlerians to lend it their ears.

[DavidW]

Well that is interesting, we hold opposite opinions.  He thinks the PI angle was BS, but there was a good performance there.  I think the PI aspect (including the portamento!) made it worth a listen, but the performance was bad.  Oh and Hurwitz thought everything was bad.

If he is going to throw Abbado under the bus, I can't share his taste.  And Hurwitz is already proven that he is EXTREMELY biased against PI in the romantic era.  It would make it hard to separate legitimate criticism from that hangup. 

I think the only thing you all can do is just listen for yourselves.

[Valentino]

As usual. 

I've been comparing Kubelik and  Ivan Fisher in the M4 and for some reason, maybe tempi and clarity, I prefer Kubelik. I even consider getting an original German pressing of it but I admit that's for the Klimt on the cover.  

[DavidW]

As usual. 

I've been comparing Kubelik and  Ivan Fisher in the M4 and for some reason, maybe tempi and clarity, I prefer Kubelik. I even consider getting an original German pressing of it but I admit that's for the Klimt on the cover.  

Kubelik is my favorite M4!  Can't beat that.  I think Fischer is alright in that symphony, but not special.  He is hit and miss for me overall (well not big misses, he either has something amazing or has something merely good, never poor in my book). 

[Atriod]

I listened to Steinaecker's performance of Mahler 9. I am with David in that I welcome these new approaches, especially if they can back it up with scholarly evidence which the booklet has done a good job explaining more than any other prior HIP Mahler.

The performance itself is average, if there was a performance that was top tier with these period instrument practices then I would be totally onboard for buying yet another Symphony 9. As it is among recent recordings it is a very far cry from Chailly/RCO, Inbal/TMSO, Kobayashi/JPO or Ozawa/Saito Kinen.

Aside from Eschenbach (maybe Battistoni, he is 1.00 with me because of the first symphony, I haven't heard 6) I can't think of any current top tier Mahler conductors so I'm not holding my breath.

[Iota]

Let me copy/paste it

The Mahler Academy's sickly string portamento makes me rather queasy. If that's really how they played it in 1912 then I'm glad to be living in this century. The string sound's rather watery too, but there's plenty of passion so far.


The pretentious portamento continues into the 2nd movement. There's often more slide than there is note. On the other hand the whole orchestra is really digging into the music and this is viscerally thrilling in a way Abbado doesn't attempt.

The Mahler Academy horn player is really giving it some and the fruity bassoons are a joy. Also the flexibility of the pacing, with plenty of tempo changes, adds to the excitement. I don't agree with everything by any means, but there's not been a dull bar so far.

The blood-and-guts physicality of the playing in the 3rd movement is a welcome corrective to the over-etherialisation of many modern performances. The attention-grabbing portamenti is still really getting up my nose. Bruno Walter in Vienna this is *NOT*.

The finale almost boils over with feeling. This recording's biggest problem is it's marketed as some sort of bridge to the past, to the performing style of Mahler's time. I don't buy that for a millisecond but if you ignore that dimension it has tons going for it.

Ok I've reached the end of this recording. I have to say that the string portamenti alone is enough to rule it out as a general recommendation. However, it's also a million miles from the "pointless, aesthetically bankrupt" debacle David Hurwitz would have you believe it is.

Personally I'd rather rehear this historically woefully-inaccurate but otherwise stimulating performance than the critically sanctified but emotionally underwhelming Abbado at least five days out of every seven. I advise adventurous Mahlerians to lend it their ears.

I didn't listen to it all, but I listened to a chunk of it about a week ago and feel broadly in sympathy with that review FWIW. Even in the opening bars the swooping portamenti bordered on sea-sickness for me, though I found much of interest as it continued. I haven't yet felt quite motivated enough to hear it all though.

[Brian]

Aside from Eschenbach (maybe Battistoni, he is 1.00 with me because of the first symphony, I haven't heard 6) I can't think of any current top tier Mahler conductors so I'm not holding my breath.

You don't like Honeck? Like several others in the thread, I've cooled off on Ivan Fischer lately.

[Atriod]

You don't like Honeck? Like several others in the thread, I've cooled off on Ivan Fischer lately.

I do like Honeck very much and I'd include him in the company of Eschenbach and Battistoni. He didn't immediately come to mind since he hasn't recorded any recently (though I suppose same is true for Eschenbach) nor programmed it in Pittsburgh.

I agree with you on Fischer, at one point I used to think he is the greatest current performing Mahler conductor but after Symphony 6, 7, and 9 my opinion of him has cooled.

[calyptorhynchus]

Ok, I now have the Mahler 9 PI disc and have listened to it and so I can talk about it instead of pontificating about nothing.

Well, it's good, it fact it's better than that, it's very good. It's quite brisk compared to many modern recordings (they fitted it on one disk), but it isn't rushed. I didn't have any problem with the conductor not shaping or guiding it, the music sailed by majestically as it should and I wasn't bored at any point.

The great thing about it is that all the instruments sound sufficiently different that you have to listen to it very closely. The instruments aren't eccentrically different, but distinctive: the E flat clarinet is deliciously squealing, the bassoons are indeed fruity, the brass quite different... the most different is the harp, it's much less Romantic and twangly, it has a nice gut-strung thud, but it's still very warm. Listing you realise how much the harp is integral to Mahler's orchestral textures now you hear it in a new way

&c &c

Don't be frightened of the portamento, it isn't that prominent, and it occurs in places where several modern conductors use it too.

Final verdict: I think it's a real must-have, and it isn't unworthy of a place on the shelf next to the great recordings of M9, from Walter, Barbirolli, Horenstein &c onwards.

[Valentino]

I've caved in and Discogsed myself with both the M4 and M1 with Kubelik on original German pressings. The old Thorens should be very glad when they arrive, a double dose of Gustav Klimt there.

[AnotherSpin]

Of the Second's performances, I really like Ádám Fischer's live recording. And Raphael Kubelik's live recording. Had a kind of listening marathon last night, tried (fragments, of course) ten or more different performances. Mostly the best known ones, I won't name which ones, but some are long-time favourites, not mine only. Maybe it's the heatwave, or the young moon, or the Iranian drones overhead, but nothing really hit the spot. To the two versions mentioned above I can add Abbado with Wiener PO.

What are your current favourites for Second?

[Sergeant Rock]

What are your current favourites for Second?

Kaplan Vienna
Maazel Vienna
Bernstein New York (DG)

Sarge

[relm1]

What are your current favourites for Second?

My favorites are
* Bernstein/NYPO (DG)
* Bernstein/NYPO (Sony) 60's recording and completely different from his 80's DG version
* Fischer/Budapest
* Rattle/CBSO
* Inbal/Frankfurt Radio Symphony (nostalgic reasons as it was one of the first CD's I ever bought and the pristine sound quality was revelatory)

[DavidW]

Klemperer/Philharmonia
Abbado/VPO
Bernstein/NYPO (Columbia)
Mehta/VPO

[Spotted Horses]

Kaplan Vienna
Maazel Vienna
Bernstein New York (DG)

Sarge

I really like that Maazel Vienna (until the caterwauling starts, of course).