Discussing Critical Content (written reviews, YT vlogs, podcasts etc.)

[Madiel]

As so often on here, everyone here is right, they just don't understand how we can all be right at the same time. 

No. It's not logically possible for the person who says "professional always has this meaning" and the person who says "professional doesn't always have this meaning" to be right at the same time. What exactly is dignified about not ever correcting anyone? Especially when what they were doing was "correcting" other people?

If you want an example of a context where "professional" and "amateur" are strictly used to refer to payment, not to standards, look at sport. The Olympics were exclusively amateur for a long period. Those people were setting world records. Some sports still maintain a rigorous distinction between the amateurs and the professionals.

Whether or not the reference to a "professional orchestra" was meant one way or another is not my concern. My concern is someone going around asserting that only one interpretation was possible, and telling other people that THEY were wrong for using a different interpretation.

Going around soothing people by telling them that everyone is right is the kind of thing that, taken to extremes, leads to Trumpian egos, and it sure as hell isn't the way your school teacher worked.

[Brian]

No. It's not logically possible for the person who says "professional always has this meaning" and the person who says "professional doesn't always have this meaning" to be right at the same time. What exactly is dignified about not ever correcting anyone?

Well, your correction could be wrong, as it is in this case. You seem to think "professional has always meant this thing" (notice I corrected the tense) is meant to say "professional exclusively and only ever had this meaning," when it is perfectly reasonable to believe that he meant "professional has also had this additional meaning," which is the interpretation supported by his use of the phrase "not just."

If you want an example of a context...

I don't, because I'm the person who originally used the word in that context.

[Madiel]

Well, your correction could be wrong, as it is in this case. You seem to think "professional has always meant this thing" (notice I corrected the tense) is meant to say "professional exclusively and only ever had this meaning," when it is perfectly reasonable to believe that he meant "professional has also had this additional meaning," which is the interpretation supported by his use of the phrase "not just."

If you're going to correct tenses, maybe you should go back and correct everything else as well.

I'm done here.

[Atriod]

@mahler10th Is Szell Beethoven one of DH's reference sets?

It is, IIRC it was his favorite set before the Wand/NDR.

[DavidW]

It is, IIRC it was his favorite set before the Wand/NDR.

Well the Wand set is exceptional, I definitely agree with him there!

[DavidW]

Article in the Guardian damned Manacorda's LvB cycle with faint praise:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/article/2024/may/16/beethoven-complete-symphonies-album-review

How many Beethoven symphony cycles do we need anyway?  Especially if the musicians involved are not inspired to make it special... maybe don't record it?  Perhaps do something else?

[Brian]

Hmmm - yeah, I am a big Manacorda fan after his excellent Mendelssohn and Schubert, but after having listened to Beethoven symphonies 1, 2, 4, 6, and 7 so far from his cycle, I couldn't really identify any specific distinguishing feature of the set. The problem is just the enormous quantity of competitors nowadays. Even if you want fast, HIP-ish modern chamber orchestras, we already have Dausgaard, P. Jarvi, Mackerras II, Ades, and probably a few others crowded into that niche. They're all very good but at some point I'm going to have to stop collecting them if they're all very good in such a similar way.

[Todd]

How many Beethoven symphony cycles do we need anyway?

At least one.

Even if you want fast, HIP-ish modern chamber orchestras, we already have Dausgaard, P. Jarvi, Mackerras II, Ades, and probably a few others crowded into that niche. They're all very good but at some point I'm going to have to stop collecting them if they're all very good in such a similar way.

The inclusion of Ades is important here, because he had some striking insights.  Since there is always the possibility of that, at least one more cycle is needed.  The same can't be said of, say, Milhaud's symphonies. 

[DavidW]

Hmmm - yeah, I am a big Manacorda fan after his excellent Mendelssohn and Schubert, but after having listened to Beethoven symphonies 1, 2, 4, 6, and 7 so far from his cycle, I couldn't really identify any specific distinguishing feature of the set. The problem is just the enormous quantity of competitors nowadays. Even if you want fast, HIP-ish modern chamber orchestras, we already have Dausgaard, P. Jarvi, Mackerras II, Ades, and probably a few others crowded into that niche. They're all very good but at some point I'm going to have to stop collecting them if they're all very good in such a similar way.

I only wish Dausgaard had a cheap box set!  Oh wait I just remembered, since I've solved my streaming problems I can try again to listen to his lvb 9...

[Karl Henning]

Not boring.

One of the plebs makes himself a jerk viz. Haydn but you expect that sort of sophomoric pronouncement in the survey to which he's responding.

[DavidW]

One of the plebs makes himself a jerk viz. Haydn but you expect that sort of sophomoric pronouncement in the survey to which he's responding.

That subreddit is just terrible.  I think they're mostly just stupid teenagers.  As proof just taking a quick browse today we have a tier listing of Beethoven piano sonatas, "describe a song badly", you know who with his endless nonsense polls, my little brother is a composer, "is Hindemith bad?" and so forth.  And yeah they hate anything remotely challenging which I'm surprised but truthfully does include Haydn, and of course nearly all 20th century music.

[Florestan]

a tier listing of Beethoven piano sonatas

Rings a bell... 

[ando]

Good one that just dropped: What Dave's learned as a video critic

[Brian]

David Vernier, whose reviews of choral and baroque music for ClassicsToday marked the end of a multidecade career in the classical review business, has died.
https://www.classicstoday.com/rip-david-vernier-editor-in-chief/

(Also of interest in the obituary: the anecdote of whose idea it was to start ClassicsToday.)

[Karl Henning]

I nearly posted this in the Granmar Grumble thread, but it's not the grammar I'm grumbling over. Then I nearly posted it in the Mahler thread (the composer referred to) but my quarrel isn't really with Mahler, either.

"That has made him, in the minds of many today, the supreme symphonist." Cannot we just enjoy and admire the symphonies without positing a "supreme symphonist?" Or isn't it any fun, if we don't?

[DavidW]

I nearly posted this in the Granmar Grumble thread, but it's not the grammar I'm grumbling over. Then I nearly posted it in the Mahler thread (the composer referred to) but my quarrel isn't really with Mahler, either.

"That has made him, in the minds of many today, the supreme symphonist." Cannot we just enjoy and admire the symphonies without positing a "supreme symphonist?" Or isn't it any fun, if we don't?

Context? Who are you quoting?

Mahler is my favorite symphonist (well tied with Bruckner), but I'm convinced that a century is not enough time to say that something has stood the test of time. Over-recording, over-performing, and over-hyping Mahler is currently fashionable. But I'm not convinced that this is not just a phase, and later, he will stop being elevated so much higher than his peers. Still, Mahler will be regarded as a great composer, but there will be a day when it will no longer be expected that a conductor must perform and/or record the Mahler symphonies as a rite of passage.

[Karl Henning]

Context? Who are you quoting?

Well, i really looked at it as dry and standalone, but it was MTT at the start of the Keeping Score feature. Not a crazy thing for an accomplished musician who is an enthusiast for the composer to say, really.

[ShineyMcShineShine]

I'm looking at Gil Zilkha Essential Classical Music and all his recommendations appear to be at least 50 years old. Sorry, but I can't take seriously anyone whose top recommendation for an orchestral work is a mono recording.

[Karl Henning]

I'm looking at Gil Zilkha Essential Classical Music and all his recommendations appear to be at least 50 years old. Sorry, but I can't take seriously anyone whose top recommendation for an orchestral work is a mono recording.

Aye, I picked up on that after watching maybe an hour and a half of his work. Of too limited interest to me. And since he's actually a singer IIRC, he ought to understand the importance of promoting living artists.

[Daverz]

I'm looking at Gil Zilkha Essential Classical Music and all his recommendations appear to be at least 50 years old. Sorry, but I can't take seriously anyone whose top recommendation for an orchestral work is a mono recording.

His recording choices seem to be received opinion rather than freshly thought out based on listening widely.  That sort of traditional consensus is going to be at least 50 years out of date if not older.  It's still useful info for a beginning collector, though (if there are still such folk), but obviously not of much interest to us obsessive collectors.