The Most Important LvB Piano Sonata Cycle Comparison in the History of the World

[Todd]

Does anybody besides Serkin repeat the entire Grave? A question for Todd.

Schiff famously does, and there is a lecture online where he describes why, citing Serkin specifically.  I know a few others do, though none jump to mind immediately.  I'd have to review my collection.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Oh yes he has

https://open.spotify.com/album/5JGzC06xholn8Vf0H1tYGl

I can also let you have an upublished recording from his QE competition -- Rach 3, Mozart PC 24,  LvB 22, Schumann Carnival and a Haydn sonata (60 is the number on the tag -- but Haydn numbering is weird.)

I already accepted correction on the Liszt point. Would be interested in your QE recording.

[Mandryka]

I already accepted correction on the Liszt point. Would be interested in your QE recording.

I'll send it to you tomorrow -- if anyone else wants the files, let me know.

There's also a commercial recording of The Goldberg Variations.

[Jo498]

This is an interesting idea, as the manuscript is lost and (according to Rosen in his book on the sonatas) the first edition is unclear on this point. However, both the Henle and Schenker editions (the only ones I own at present) start the repeat with the Allegro, and Rosen concurs without disputing the reasonableness of repeating the Grave. I have played it for myself both ways, and though the Grave is great fun to pound out on my home piano, I favor restarting from the Allegro. Why? well, for one thing the introduction is very long, and like the exposition it modulates from C minor to E-flat major (though the second subject of the exposition starts in E-flat minor). So if the introduction is repeated, then this modulation is heard four times instead of three.

There was a guy on a German language forum who argued quite convincingly for the Serkin way and he claimed that the Grave was not really an introduction in the usual sense, partly because it is repeated later in the piece. He had more arguments but I don't remember them (he was a bit obsessed with exposition repeats in general but with good reasons).

There is a similar dispute in Chopin's 2nd, isn't there?

Anyway, Serkin is the only one I am aware of who does this, except for Schiff. There are both fairly smart guys, so they must have their good reasons. And the piece fits Serkin's gruff approach regardless of that particular choice.

[Todd]

Does anybody besides Serkin repeat the entire Grave? A question for Todd.

I reviewed my complete cycle collection and identified the below five cycles beyond Schiff.  There is a chance that I missed one or two.  I did not review my non-cycle collection, and I am pretty sure another one or two lurk in there.

Ikuyo Nakamichi
Takahiro Sonoda I & II
Anton Kuerti
Angela Hewitt

[(poco) Sforzando]

There was a guy on a German language forum who argued quite convincingly for the Serkin way and he claimed that the Grave was not really an introduction in the usual sense, partly because it is repeated later in the piece. He had more arguments but I don't remember them (he was a bit obsessed with exposition repeats in general but with good reasons).

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. The introduction to the Pathétique behaves in every possible way like any number of introductions in classical sonata allegros, for example being slow and rather loosely organized. Compare the 2nd and 4th symphonies. Schiff also makes the point that this intro with its dotted rhythms has its roots in the slow opening section of the baroque French overture. And I have already given several examples above where both Mozart and Beethoven bring back material from an introduction in later parts of the movement.

There is a similar dispute in Chopin's 2nd, isn't there?

I presume you're talking about the B-flat minor Sonata. I mainly know this issue from Rosen's book on The Romantic Revolution, where he claims that the repeat should start from the four bars of Grave at the start of the movement. Many pianists start the repeat from the Doppio movimento at the fifth bar in B-flat minor, and that's the way the sonata is often published. Rosen claims this is musically ungrammatical, and you can read a summary of the issue here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._2_(Chopin) - scroll to Repeat of the exposition

Whatever the case, there's no doubt these 4 bars of Grave are an introduction, and are very short and in not quite as slow a tempo as the 10 bars of intro from LvB op. 13. Personally, though I would never argue directly with Rosen (who would be convinced I'm wrong because I'm a very stupid guy and he's right because he's a very smart guy, and besides he's dead), I think a musically valid case could be made for starting the repeat at the fifth bar, at the Doppio movimento.

Anyway, Serkin is the only one I am aware of who does this, except for Schiff. There are both fairly smart guys, so they must have their good reasons. And the piece fits Serkin's gruff approach regardless of that particular choice.

This is circular reasoning. They're smart so they must have good reasons. And their reasons must be good because they're smart. Rosen prefers to start the repeat from the Allegro. Does that mean he's not smart?

[Jo498]

It's more an apppeal to authority but as I don't know Serkin's & Schiff's explicit reasons, I cannot quote them but must assume they have good ones. Others might have done it for quirkiness but Serkin and Schiff are not quirky guys, so it's fair to assume they thought about it.

Your argument that other introductions are not repeated does not prove very much because every piece is different and some slow introductions are in fact repeated. E.g. in op.130, the Beethoven movement that might be the closest in this respect to op.13.

I don't have time to summarize it now but here's a link to that German guy, maybe you can translate it with a program. (I think he's wrong wrt Arrau, at least for the 1960s recording that might not be the one intended.) The core argument are the transitions between expo -> repeat, expo -> development, recap ->coda and he claims that they are clumsy/inconsistent without the Grave repeat.

https://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/3929-beethoven-klaviersonate-nr-8-in-c-moll-op-13-pathetique/&postID=92827#post92827

[Mandryka]

This is circular reasoning. They're smart so they must have good reasons. And their reasons must be good because they're smart. Rosen prefers to start the repeat from the Allegro. Does that mean he's not smart?

The assertion that they are smart is justified by the fact that they have often had good reasons in the past.
The fact they have often had good reasons in the past is evidence for assertion that their reasons are good now.

(I have zero to say about the Pathetique sonata by the way.)
 

[Todd]

.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The assertion that they are smart is justified by the fact that they have often had good reasons in the past.
The fact they have often had good reasons in the past is evidence for assertion that their reasons are good now.

Not necessarily. The assertions must all be evaluated on their merits, not past experience. Plenty of people have had good ideas in the past but have also gone off the deep ends later.

[(poco) Sforzando]

It's more an apppeal to authority but as I don't know Serkin's & Schiff's explicit reasons, I cannot quote them but must assume they have good ones. Others might have done it for quirkiness but Serkin and Schiff are not quirky guys, so it's fair to assume they thought about it.

Your argument that other introductions are not repeated does not prove very much because every piece is different and some slow introductions are in fact repeated. E.g. in op.130, the Beethoven movement that might be the closest in this respect to op.13.

I don't have time to summarize it now but here's a link to that German guy, maybe you can translate it with a program. (I think he's wrong wrt Arrau, at least for the 1960s recording that might not be the one intended.) The core argument are the transitions between expo -> repeat, expo -> development, recap ->coda and he claims that they are clumsy/inconsistent without the Grave repeat.

https://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/3929-beethoven-klaviersonate-nr-8-in-c-moll-op-13-pathetique/&postID=92827#post92827

I'll need some time with your tamino post, weil heute mein deutsch sehr schlecht ist.

I did in fact mention op. 130 upthread. Yes, that is a completely repeated introduction, but it is tonally very neutral not modulating beyond B-flat while the op. 13 does effect a modulation and is much longer. There's no doubt that hearing that opening C-minor chord again is very effective, but as it goes on I am less convinced.

As for argument from authority, not quirky guys, fairly smart guys, fair to assume they've thought about it, good ideas in the past, etc., etc., none of that addresses the issue, which should be discussed only on the merits of the evidence - about which reasonable people may disagree.

For Schiff's reasoning, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNtraewxec&t=239s, at 2:43.

[Mandryka]

Not necessarily.

Indeed. You can evidence for X and X is false nonetheless.
 

[(poco) Sforzando]

At least we're now on to the uncomplicated Op. 14s, technically some of the easiest sonatas in the bunch. There are a few minor technical pitfalls in the broken thirds in the first movement of 14/1, but nothing to speak of. The E major is the sonata that LvB himself arranged for string quartet, transposing it up a semitone to take advantage of the cello's open C string. I think the outstanding movement here is the melancholy Allegretto in E minor, which somehow sounds a bit to me like Brahms. The variations movement in op. 14/2 is among the easiest things to play in all of Beethoven, along with the tiny sonatinas from op. 49.

[Todd]

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[Florestan]

Not necessarily. The assertions must all be evaluated on their merits, not past experience. Plenty of people have had good ideas in the past but have also gone off the deep ends later.

The ultimate beauty of music being that there is both no ultimate performance and no going off the deep ends --- for each case there is at least one (very knowledgeable) person who disagrees.

The most up-to-date scientific facts & figures incontrovertibly prove the ancient wisdom that one's man treasure is another man's trash.

[Todd]

Nothing is more predictable than Florestan posting a platitude.

[Holden]

Moravec is my favorite Pathetique.

...and mine

[AnotherSpin]

Speaking of predictability, the winners of this bizarre contest were obvious from the start.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Speaking of predictability, the winners of this bizarre contest were obvious from the start.

With 22 sonatas to go, it ain't over till it's over.

[AnotherSpin]

With 22 sonatas to go, it ain't over till it's over.

Expect no surprises from science.