The Most Important LvB Piano Sonata Cycle Comparison in the History of the World

[Florestan]

I haven't seen the latest posts before they were deleted. Did I miss something?

Not at all, just my usual exchange with Todd. Expletives all mine.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I haven't seen the latest posts before they were deleted. Did I miss something?

I haven't been keeping up, but I have faith that DavidW did it for a reason as in trying to keep the peace and to keep things on track.

PD

[Florestan]

DavidW did it for a reason as in trying to keep the peace and to keep things on track.

Always the case.

[Mandryka]

In my view, Frank's cycle stands out as one of the most consistently rewarding and comprehensive experiences.

Frank's cycle has proved to be a great find for me, an enormous pleasure. I started listening to it because someone proposed that French pianists aren't often at their best in Beethoven. That may still be right it fact, because it turns out that Frank is not pukka French, he was born in Nuremberg, a Jew, and lived and studied in Paris to escape Hitler.

Anyway, it's been a long time since I enjoyed early and middle sonatas, but I'm finding Frank irresistible.

[Hobby]

It's sad that Todd is now limited to talking to himself on the new version of this thread. That negates the main point of this forum which is to interchange views. I presume we will continue discussion here and where appropriate comment on Todd's daily posts and views on the sonatas.

[Hobby]

The rankings are nearly halfway, covering all the 13 early period sonatas up to op.28, although 49.1&2 will be added to scores so far for early sonatas.

The total ranking scores (with positions in brackets) so far are

1st 8   9 - 15   All early 15  Pianist
14 (1)  21 (2)   35 (1)        Sohn
26 (3)  15 (1)   41 (2)        Lucchesini
25 (2)  32 (4)   57 (3)        Fischer
43 (5)  28 (3)   71 (4)        Pienaar
41 (4)  45 (6)   86 (5)        Mejoueva
59 (6=) 42 (5)  101 (6)        Schnabel
59 (6=) 51 (  110 (7)        Kempff (M)
81 (11) 47 (7)  128 (        Sherman
71 (  61 (10) 132 (9)        Kosuge
82 (12) 59 (9)  141 (10)       Heidsieck
80 (10) 74 (11) 154 (11)       Backhaus
73 (9)  86 (13) 159 (12)       Kempff (S)
88 (13) 79 (12) 167 (13)       Gulda
84+(14) 81+(14) 165+(14)       Gilels

[AnotherSpin]

The notes by Todd are rather curious, if not frivolous. We read that Kempff's performance of Sonata No. 15 includes a stream of consciousness manner(?) and is all so zen(?). Really? It's doubtful that Todd understands what these things mean. Kempff's performance is indeed very, very good. But, it has nothing to do with Zen. With a similar level of appropriateness, the term Zen could be applied to any other performance of any other sonata.

[Todd]

AnotherSpin once again demonstrates that non-native English speakers face serious challenges on the internet.

[Todd]

I decided to give QuillBot a try to see how AI would rewrite 31/1.  This is unedited output.  Perhaps AnotherSpin will find this output more satisfactory seeing as how AnotherSpin has posted positively about AI before.



Andrea Cappelletti – Lucchesini is brisk right away, punching out quickly and swaying back and forth across the piano. A wonderful opener is created by the pianist's lyrical playing in melody-focused moments, together with excitement and pleasure. The warm, lyrical manner and the lovely, blurring trills blend beautifully in the Adagio grazioso, which is light and beautiful in just the right amount. The Rondo has a little amount of vigor. The sonata as a whole sounds like a lovely scherzo.

Annie Fischer – The reading isn't light at all, but it's also not heavy either thanks to the cutting sound, relatively fast overall tempo, and very brisk portions that give it a joyful feel. Here, the Adagio grazioso is perfect since it sounds crisp and clean yet a little more intense. Although the Rondo is full of vigor, it still feels a little too intense.

Arthur Schnabel – In the first movement, Schnabel goes all out in terms of pace, with a few clearly noticeable instances of imperfection. That is less important than the zeal and silliness. Among this group of pianists, only he had the late 19th-century sensibility in the lengthy, slow Adagio grazioso, which combines rapid trills and a playful sense with the slower, more romantic music. The Rondo is lively, brisk, and enjoyable.

Ben Pienaar, Daniel — Pienaar unleashes his interventionism here, tearing out the gate with such reckless abandon that Schnabel might grimace, if not nod in agreement. He stumbles through parts of the playing as well. The entire introduction Prestissimo Allegro vivace is so exaggerated that one had to turn it off or give in to the giddiness. The former is far more enjoyable. The Adagio grazioso's general time is typical, although it conceals a few significant deviations. Basically, Pienaar is never satisfied to just play it straight; instead, he must make adjustments everywhere. The rapid stuff is fairly fast, and the slow stuff is pretty damned slow. I can't think of a better way to sum up the Rondo than as a musical.

Emil Gilels –  Often gentle playing, with extremely delicate articulation and excellent dynamic control, is supported by a rhythm akin to dancing. It sounds good when the dramatic gestures counterbalance the tenderness. The second movement has a somewhat whimsical mood throughout the most of the movement and is performed at a leisurely tempo with largely restrained dramatic contrasts. The Rondo lacks some vigor and drive, but it can't be blamed for being unclear.

A man named Eric Heidsieck The humorously quick playing that follows the slow-ish starting pace and exaggerated left-hand notes gives way to the returning music and the movement's main material, which is masterfully executed by Heisdieck's staccato, rhythmic sureness, and melodic swagger. The incredibly lengthy Adagio grazioso (13'57") begins with hazy trills and just kind of floats along. The Heidsieck performs the second half really slowly and softly. So deliciously melodic! In the Rondo, Heidsieck maintains a fairly easy speed, yet it just flows forward charmingly, amusingly, and almost silly. A hit record.

Friedrich Gulda (Amadeo): Gulda's perspective is essentially all about speed from beginning to end, with constant acoustic x-ray clarity. The playing has an almost comic quality to it, which is effective.

Bijin Irina Mejoueva – Mejoueva adopts Annie's strategy, but she does so with more adaptability, subtler dynamic gradations, and a lighthearted attitude to a serious goal. It's not a cheerful view, but it's also not depressing. In the Adagio grazioso, the piano's and the instrument's playing produce vivid and hazy trills. The movement is also enhanced by the large, beefy bass notes that come just before the coda, the gorgeous upper registers, and the occasionally off-kilter beat. In the Rondo, the playing adopts a quick, fluid, flowing, and light feel, continuing in this manner almost nonstop all the way to the finish. superior quality items.

Minsoo Sohn – The opening is marked by deft fingerwork and dramatic contrasts, and Sohn then adds pace and drive. Sohn attempts to add humor to his playing, yet he never wavers from his feeling of authority and gravity. Thankfully, it functions admirably—possibly the best recording of its kind in that regard. The Adagio grazioso contains the same serious/fun combination throughout, and the music in the second half is supported by charmingly cruel left hand playing. The Rondo grazioso isn't as jovial as some other renditions, but the forward momentum and excellent vocal clarity swiftly silence critics.

Sherman Russell – Nothing too unusual exists to begin the Allegro vivace. But as the piece progresses, the collection of unique touches—subtle or less noticeable accelerations and decelerations, excessively dramatic contrasts, off-beat rhythm, an absurdly erratic and slurred wall of noise in the middle, and so on—pushes the piece toward a blend of seriousness and comedy that few other pianists can equal. Although Sherman's rendition of the Adagio grazioso is not the most severe, Sherman does a great job with it. Music lurches around comically due to light, charming trills and an utterly offbeat and unstable accompaniment.  The pianissimo finish receives lavish attention in the second section, which again combines a relentless forward drive and a wide dynamic. The transition between the playing and the preparation seems almost improvisatory. In the Rondo, instability is the norm. I wrote in my review of the cycle when I first listened to it that the joyful playing had almost an intoxicated vibe, and I was right—it's wonderful in every aspect. In this sonata, I adore strong intervention, and Sherman has that, oh yes, he does. He is among the greatest ever and the best of this bunch.

Wilhelm Backhaus (mono) – In the opening movement, Backhaus plays with a lightness and vigor, in the Adagio grazioso, he conveys a sense of true playfulness, and in the Rondo, he performs with energy and fun. Backhaus finds it all to be lighthearted and enjoyable.

In unison, Wilhelm Kempff keeps the opening Allegro vivace moving somewhat quickly, yet in the most difficult moments, the generally light movement takes on a somewhat somber air. The Adagio grazioso has flattened dynamics and a very light and lyrical touch, whilst the Rondo has a very breezy feel.

Wilhelm Kempff (stereo): The stereo recording has a little louder sound and better recorded dynamics than the mono recording, but it still sounds very similar.

Yosuge Yu – Kosuge's interpretation is somewhat simple, but she benefits from the recorded sound's excellent clarity and capacity to reveal minute dynamic variations. and to acknowledge the refined sforzandi. The languid and charming Adagio grazioso, which emphasizes the grazioso, sounds, dare I say it, sweet overall; the Allegro vivace has a touch of polite prankishness; and the Rondo has speed and highly polished heaviness, which evokes a sense of (maybe too?) exquisite fun.

[Mandryka]

AnotherSpin once again demonstrates that non-native English speakers face serious challenges on the internet.

[Todd]

That song is about Warren Beatty.  It's not, but it is.

The appropriateness of posting in a locked thread should be obvious to all but the self-unaware.

[Brian]

The notes by Todd are rather curious, if not frivolous. We read that Kempff's performance of Sonata No. 15 includes a stream of consciousness manner(?) and is all so zen(?). Really? It's doubtful that Todd understands what these things mean. Kempff's performance is indeed very, very good. But, it has nothing to do with Zen. With a similar level of appropriateness, the term Zen could be applied to any other performance of any other sonata.

I will try to reply less sarcastically than he did. The frivolities are meant offer an analogy. You could translate the metaphorical descriptions to more concrete ones. Perhaps a "stream of consciousness performance" is one that sounds improvisatory and in-the-moment. Perhaps a "zen" performance does not mean the performer is a Buddhist, but rather that the performance exudes a deep calm and peacefulness.

Certainly it makes for more colorful reading than "this one is faster than that one." One gets the sense that Todd writes these for his own entertainment even more so than for ours.

[Brian]

I've listened to about a dozen Minsoo Sohn performances so far, inspired by this thread. There was a little bit of a learning curve. My first impression was of technical brilliance, rhythmic precision, a slight preference for staccato jabbing, but maybe a little too much relentlessness - listening to some of the earlier sonatas in particular left my ears a little bit tired. Sort of like a modern concert grand piano analogue to a very fast chamber orchestra reading of the Beethoven symphonies.

But then I listened to the Waldstein earlier this week and had my conversion moment. Obviously, I like the finale to have that soft "magic," but I like a slow middle movement and a kind of disorienting first movement. It should have that feeling of doing something completely new. Sohn checks all three boxes and then some. It clicked entirely with what I want of a Waldstein.

Todd's comment about Sohn being "museum-quality" at times rings true; sometimes you want something more spontaneous, more impassioned. But sometimes, museum perfection is just the thing.

[Mandryka]

But then I listened to the Waldstein earlier this week and had my conversion moment. Obviously, I like the finale to have that soft "magic," but I like a slow middle movement and a kind of disorienting first movement. It should have that feeling of doing something completely new. Sohn checks all three boxes and then some. It clicked entirely with what I want of a Waldstein.

Agreed. It's very good.

[Papy Oli]

Le temps ne fait rien à l'affaire...


-George Brassens.

[AnotherSpin]

I will try to reply less sarcastically than he did. The frivolities are meant offer an analogy. You could translate the metaphorical descriptions to more concrete ones. Perhaps a "stream of consciousness performance" is one that sounds improvisatory and in-the-moment. Perhaps a "zen" performance does not mean the performer is a Buddhist, but rather that the performance exudes a deep calm and peacefulness.

Certainly it makes for more colorful reading than "this one is faster than that one." One gets the sense that Todd writes these for his own entertainment even more so than for ours.

Understanding what Todd is trying to say in his flawless English is not difficult at all; it's just a set of words that doesn't make it clear why he arranges the selected recordings in this particular order rather than another. But the use of words like 'zen' is too funny to ignore without responding  

[Brian]

Understanding what Todd is trying to say in his flawless English is not difficult at all; it's just a set of words that doesn't make it clear why he arranges the selected recordings in this particular order rather than another. But the use of words like 'zen' is too funny to ignore without responding  

Yeah, I guess you have to use the rankings to decide how much he values zen-ness, etc. Certainly I have been making notes to listen to things that didn't rank #1. (And I know I don't like Pienaar.)

[Karl Henning]

I was thinking of posting in the "New" thread. but. oh ....

[DavidW]

@AnotherSpin and @Todd, please stop the ad hominem attacks on each other. Please engage with the ideas without criticizing the other poster's mastery of the English language.

[AnotherSpin]

I've listened to about a dozen Minsoo Sohn performances so far, inspired by this thread. There was a little bit of a learning curve. My first impression was of technical brilliance, rhythmic precision, a slight preference for staccato jabbing, but maybe a little too much relentlessness - listening to some of the earlier sonatas in particular left my ears a little bit tired. Sort of like a modern concert grand piano analogue to a very fast chamber orchestra reading of the Beethoven symphonies.

But then I listened to the Waldstein earlier this week and had my conversion moment. Obviously, I like the finale to have that soft "magic," but I like a slow middle movement and a kind of disorienting first movement. It should have that feeling of doing something completely new. Sohn checks all three boxes and then some. It clicked entirely with what I want of a Waldstein.

Todd's comment about Sohn being "museum-quality" at times rings true; sometimes you want something more spontaneous, more impassioned. But sometimes, museum perfection is just the thing.

I just listened to Minsoo Sohn's Waldstein. It feels like we're talking about different recordings. Well, I checked again, Qobuz says it's correct, Minsoo Sohn. My impressions are still the same as before: technically everything is fine, but it's empty inside. Shallow, no depth. No zen, no stream of consciousness either.

Then, Sonata No. 22 started playing, and everything got really strange. I mean, strange can be good, but this is a different kind of strange.