The Most Important LvB Piano Sonata Cycle Comparison in the History of the World

[Hobby]

Listening to Stephen Osborne play op 111. It is museum quality, and it is top tier. The museum quality is not a drawback.

I think his op 106 is pretty special too.

[Jo498]

While re-listening to a bunch of sonatas inspired by the thread and Todd's other one I wondered about favorites in some sonatas that are not frequently recorded outside of complete cycles:

op.2,2
op.7
op.14,1
op.14,2
op.22
op.27,1
op.49,1+2
op.54
op.78
op.79

[(poco) Sforzando]

I am looking at Todd's ratings now that almost all 32 have been evaluated, and the results are kind of interesting. Minsoo Sohn and Andrea Lucchesini occupy many of the top spots throughout, with Annie Fischer close behind. Schnabel, Mejoueva, and Kosuge are generally in the middle of the pack, with Gulda, Kempff stereo, and above all Gilels at the bottom. (Though Gilels gets a high mark for his Waldstein, and Schnabel for 109.) The others are more or less evenly spread out, though Kempff mono seems preferable to Kempff stereo.)

Having suspended my own comments on the sonatas after the Great Thread Split of two weeks ago, I am inclined to resume them for the benefit of the 1-2 people (including myself) who might be remotely interested. But I think I'll do the sonatas at random, or start from 111 and work backwards.

[Mandryka]

While re-listening to a bunch of sonatas inspired by the thread and Todd's other one I wondered about favorites in some sonatas that are not frequently recorded outside of complete cycles:

op.2,2
op.7
op.14,1
op.14,2
op.22
op.27,1
op.49,1+2
op.54
op.78
op.79

Sviatoslav Richter played op 14/1 in an all Beethoven concert in Hungary somewhere between 1976 and 1985. For me this is full of the tender humane melancholy which I find so attractive in his later, post heart trouble, performances. It's here

I'm quite keen to hear this at some point - it has a late performance of op 14/2




https://open.spotify.com/album/42NBn3DFwiZVwCWPIARUqM

[Todd]

It would take no little work to come up with lengthy or even moderate lists for each.  But for a couple:

op.22

I have yet to hear anything less than very good versions from French pianists, and typically they rate among the best.  Pommier, FFG, Nat, Levinas, Bavouzet, Pludermacher, and of course Heidsieck: it matters not, they all sound very fine.

op.54

One version that stays in memory, no matter which other versions I may listen to, is Kun Woo Paik.  Maybe he's the best, maybe not, but he's distinctive.

[DavidW]

I've now put Sohn's cycle on my list to stream.

[Jo498]

Beethoven must have considered op.14/1 an important piece, despite its relative brevity & mostly humorous character as he arranged it for string quartet and apparently was proud of this version, too.

I like the Richter linked above in the first & last movement (although this seems more presto than comodo) but the 2nd seems way too slow and drags; it's a nice contrast and Richter can almost pull it off, but it's more an intermezzo that should not be turned into a slow movement.

I had listened to both op.14 with Lucchesini a couple of days ago; he's pretty good as generally the more lyrical sonatas seem a strength in that cycle but the sound is variable. I have to crank it upt and find it often still a bit distant and I liked #2 better, partly because of the sound. I recall Richter's 14/2 that I have as unlikely filler for the Liszt concerti as too intense for my taste. I prefer a rather slow first movement in 14/2. (The problem with Gilels is that he is good in the first movement but too slow and humourless in the following ones, no 14/1 from him, course)

[Jo498]

op.22
I have yet to hear anything less than very good versions from French pianists, and typically they rate among the best.  Pommier, FFG, Nat, Levinas, Bavouzet, Pludermacher, and of course Heidsieck: it matters not, they all sound very fine.

This was one of my least favorite sonatas but I like it more than I used to. I listened to Lucchesini a few days ago and this is very good.
I apparently never warmed to Heidsieck in general. His set was a major reason why I got the cheap Beethoven cube (that also hay the symphonies with Cluytens etc) when it was on offer but the only thing I remember about Heidsieck is the absurdly slow tempo for the scherzo of op.28 although I must have gone through most of the sonatas at least twice over the years, with comparions to others.

op.54
One version that stays in memory, no matter which other versions I may listen to, is Kun Woo Paik.  Maybe he's the best, maybe not, but he's distinctive.

Also one of my least favorite sonatas and the Beethoven piece I find most puzzling.The only section I love is the last ~half minute of the first movement. Kun Woo Paik might be as good as anyone but the 2nd movement is too fast for me although it's often played that way. So fast I get dizzy and it's allegretto, not presto.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Also one of my least favorite sonatas and the Beethoven piece I find most puzzling.The only section I love is the last ~half minute of the first movement. Kun Woo Paik might be as good as anyone but the 2nd movement is too fast for me although it's often played that way. So fast I get dizzy and it's allegretto, not presto.

Charles Rosen, in his book-length study of the sonatas (essential reading, IMO, though very technical) argues that the finale of 54 is generally played too fast - along with other perpetuum mobiles like the finales of 31/2 and 57. I suppose the pianists fear that if they play such pieces at the indicated tempos, the know-it-alls will assume they lack the necessary technique to play them faster. But on the CD accompanying his book, Rosen has recorded the whole of 54 at a distinctly slower and even pokey-sounding tempo for the finale. It doesn't help me like this puzzling little piece any better, but there you are.

[Todd]

I suppose the pianists fear that if they play such pieces at the indicated tempos, the know-it-alls will assume they lack the necessary technique to play them faster.

Given Paik's virtuosic recordings on the one hand, and his increasing use of slower tempi since he signed to DG on the other, in this case, I suspect he had interpretive reasons for playing the way he did.  I'd like to hear how Pogorelich (even now) or Barto might approach the work, and how they might turn it into a sonic freakshow. 

[Jo498]

I like Lucchesini a bit better as he is not quite as fast as Paik in the 2nd mvmt. There might be some connection to a piece from a Handel suite, at least I read this somewhere but I am not sure what's the source. In any case, a few passages can sound a bit like the Schumann Toccata but with all respect to Beethoven, that Toccata does the pseudo-baroque in a much more exciting way.

FWIW I don't mind fast and furious in the op.57 and 31/2 finales although they also have "ma non troppo" and "allegretto", not "con brio" or "presto".

[Henk]

I think his op 106 is pretty special too.

It is more a symphony than a sonata actually. Like Nietzsche wrote. Someone should write it for an orchestra.

'173.

Corriger La Fortune.—There are unfortunate accidents in the lives of great artists, which compel the painter, for instance, to sketch out his most important picture only as a passing thought, or such as obliged Beethoven to leave behind him only the insufficient pianoforte score of many great sonatas (as in the great B flat). In these cases the artist of a later day must endeavour to fill out the life of the great man,—[Pg 176]of all orchestral effects, would call into life that symphony which has fallen into the piano-trance.' (Human, all too Human)

[(poco) Sforzando]

FWIW I don't mind fast and furious in the op.57 and 31/2 finales although they also have "ma non troppo" and "allegretto", not "con brio" or "presto".

Yeah, but with 57 at least you need enough room to contrast with the Presto coda.

[Jo498]

Yeah, but with 57 at least you need enough room to contrast with the Presto coda.

Yes, but op.54 also has a faster coda and I think the contrasts are usually better brought out in op.57 by most pianists but as I admitted I don't like op.54 very much and don't listen to it frequently.

[Jo498]

It is more a symphony than a sonata actually. Like Nietzsche wrote. Someone should write it for an orchestra.

'173.

Corriger La Fortune.—There are unfortunate accidents in the lives of great artists, which compel the painter, for instance, to sketch out his most important picture only as a passing thought, or such as obliged Beethoven to leave behind him only the insufficient pianoforte score of many great sonatas (as in the great B flat). In these cases the artist of a later day must endeavour to fill out the life of the great man,—[Pg 176]of all orchestral effects, would call into life that symphony which has fallen into the piano-trance.' (Human, all too Human)

This is funny coming from Nietzsche who is usually brilliant but wrong, or at best sketchy as he could hardly ever be bothered to write anything cogent longer than a page (more frequently half a page).

Weingartner orchestrated op.106 and it sounds mostly grotesque. There is a historical recording from the 1930s conducted by Weingartner but I am not sure if there has been a later recording. Which is strange and telling in an age when arrangements of the most outlandish things have been recorded (e.g. an orchestration of Brahms' op.8 Trio, AFAIK).

[Mandryka]

It is more a symphony than a sonata actually. Like Nietzsche wrote. Someone should write it for an orchestra.

'173.

Corriger La Fortune.—There are unfortunate accidents in the lives of great artists, which compel the painter, for instance, to sketch out his most important picture only as a passing thought, or such as obliged Beethoven to leave behind him only the insufficient pianoforte score of many great sonatas (as in the great B flat). In these cases the artist of a later day must endeavour to fill out the life of the great man,—[Pg 176]of all orchestral effects, would call into life that symphony which has fallen into the piano-trance.' (Human, all too Human)

It's a while since I heard the Weingartner transcription.

It's an interesting idea because it suggests that the music would benefit from being played colourfully on keyboard, symphonic colours from the piano. On a modern piano Demidenko does this maybe - I like what he does very much.


https://www.discogs.com/release/3397357-Nikolai-Demidenko-Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Sonaten-F%C3%BCr-Klavier-Op-10-Nr-2-Und-Op-106-Hammerklavier

[Henk]

It's a while since I heard the Weingartner transcription.

It's an interesting idea because it suggests that the music would benefit from being played colourfully on keyboard, symphonic colours from the piano. On a modern piano Demidenko does this maybe - I like what he does very much.


https://www.discogs.com/release/3397357-Nikolai-Demidenko-Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Sonaten-F%C3%BCr-Klavier-Op-10-Nr-2-Und-Op-106-Hammerklavier

Found the Weingartner on Spotify.

[Henk]

This is funny coming from Nietzsche who is usually brilliant but wrong, or at best sketchy as he could hardly ever be bothered to write anything cogent longer than a page (more frequently half a page).

Weingartner orchestrated op.106 and it sounds mostly grotesque. There is a historical recording from the 1930s conducted by Weingartner but I am not sure if there has been a later recording. Which is strange and telling in an age when arrangements of the most outlandish things have been recorded (e.g. an orchestration of Brahms' op.8 Trio, AFAIK).

Your POV regarding Nietzsche, not mine.

Thanks for the Weingartner tip. I didn't know.

[Jo498]

It's a bit surprising that Nietzsche who composed himself and usually wrote aphorisms instead of systematic treatises, so he knew that there is not "greatest genre" for every kind of thought, would think that great Beethoven piano sonatas "should" have been symphonies.

Clearly "should" does not mean that Beethoven didn't have enough time for a symphony, like a painter might only manage a sketch instead of the full painting. Nietzsche must have known that this was not the case but still found them in a sense "too big" for piano only.

Apart from Beethoven's intimate relation with his instrument that usually had him trying new or specially darin things first in piano music and the sonatas clearly "fitting" the piano there is also the aspect of going to the limit of what one instrument and player can do, similar to the Bach solo violin suites. Obviously not quite the same as a violin is far more restricted in possibilities.

That Weingartner's arrangement remains obscure seems evidence that, unlike in cases like Mussorgsky's "Pictures" and others, Weingartner and Nietzsche were wrong. op.106 (I am not aware of an orchestrated Appassionata or op.111) is best on the piano.

[Henk]

That Weingartner's arrangement remains obscure seems evidence that, unlike in cases like Mussorgsky's "Pictures" and others, Weingartner and Nietzsche were wrong. op.106 (I am not aware of an orchestrated Appassionata or op.111) is best on the piano.

I think you can't infer that. Another plausible reason is that they want to stick to Beethoven and Nietzsche has had too little persuasion power.