Nietzsche criticizing GMG

[Henk]

More power to you.

I

True dat!

Suffice it to say, I'm from Earth and Nietzsche is from Mars.

It's all about genes. You must be born to feel drawn toward certain philosophers and their opinions. Nietzsche gives some direction to a soul like me who is torn by bad and good behaviour/intentions. Nietzsche: 'To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities — I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not — that one endures.' This applies to me, to my history.

[foxandpeng]

I
It's all about genes. You must be born to feel drawn toward certain philosophers and their opinions. Nietzsche gives some direction to a soul like me who is torn by bad and good behaviour/intentions. Nietzsche: 'To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities — I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not — that one endures.' This applies to me, to my history.

This quote makes my point far more clearly than any words I could write.

Bankruptcy, bitterness and cynicism.

I hope for better things for you, my friend.

[Florestan]

It's all about genes. You must be born to feel drawn toward certain philosophers and their opinions.

Not born, just thinking.

[Florestan]

God is dead - Nietzsche.

Nietzsche is dead - God.

[Henk]

This quote makes my point far more clearly than any words I could write.

Bankruptcy, bitterness and cynicism.

I hope for better things for you, my friend.

This life of mine is mainly about three things:
- Finding the truth about myself and truth in general
- Saving the world. Can't claim it, but I have my story (not so much to tell) and it's a heavy one
- A big lesson in modesty

I have experienced much happiness in fact along my journey, but also very deep lows and much struggling. I hope to keep some health to have a life. Must care for my mind and reading 'Human, all to human' and 'The Joyful Science' helps a lot. It feeds my mind so I can keep thinking, it gives me back my concentration.

[foxandpeng]

I don't normally think Family Guy is useful, but this is a really good take on "Nietzsche":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tVFp8KTEw-k

No holds barred 😉

[Henk]

God is dead - Nietzsche.

Nietzsche is dead - God.

That makes me think about 'Twilight of the Idols', from N's perspective: 'This little work is a great declaration of war; and with regard to the cross-examining of idols, this time it is not the idols of the age but eternal idols which are here struck with a hammer as with a tuning fork,—there are certainly no idols which are older, more convinced, and more inflated. Neither are there any more hollow. This does not alter the fact that they are believed in more than any others, besides they are never called idols,—at least, not the most exalted among their number.'

[Florestan]

Primum vivere, deinde philosophari.

I wonder: has Nietzsche ever shagged a woman?

My educate guess is NO.

[Henk]

Primum vivere, deinde philosophari.

I wonder: has Nietzsche ever shagged a woman?

My educate guess is NO.

I read somewhere he went to the whores in his schoolyears. 

[Florestan]

I read somewhere he went to the whores in his schoolyears. 

Arrested development...    ⁷

[Henk]

Nietzsche is a totalitarizing philosopher I've come to the conclusion. All what we wish for, Nietzsche detests.

Because Nietzsche's will to totalize, every bit of his philosophy is worthless.

I'm in the process of conversion. Agamben, Prozorov and Irigaray for me now.

[foxandpeng]

Nietzsche is a totalitarizing philosopher I've come to the conclusion. All what we wish for, Nietzsche detests.

Because Nietzsche's will to totalize, every bit of his philosophy is worthless.

I'm in the process of conversion. Agamben, Prozorov and Irigaray for me now.

That seems like something of a radical shift from grand applause to suggesting that every bit of his philosophy is worthless. I don't disagree with your conclusion in the slightest, but I hope you are OK.

[Florestan]

Because Nietzsche's will to totalize, every bit of his philosophy is worthless.

That's indeed quite an unexpected volte-face, Henk. 

[Madiel]

Just letting you know what Nietzsche thinks of GMG, probably to your annoyance. I'm on his side. 

'The Art-Need of the Second Order.—The people may have something of what can be called art-need, but it is small, and can be cheaply satisfied. On the whole, the remnant of art (it must be honestly confessed) suffices for this need. Let us consider, for example, the kind of melodies and songs in which the most vigorous, unspoiled, and true-hearted classes of the population find genuine delight; let us live among shepherds, cowherds, peasants, huntsmen, soldiers, and sailors, and give ourselves the answer. And in the country town, just in the houses that are the homes of inherited civic virtue, is it not the worst music at present produced that is loved and, one might say, cherished? He who speaks of deeper needs and unsatisfied yearnings for art among the people, as it is, is a crank or an impostor. Be honest! Only in exceptional men is there now an art-need in the highest sense—because art is once more on the down-grade, and human powers and hopes are for the time being directed to other matters.—Apart from this, outside the populace, there exists indeed, in the higher and highest strata of society, a broader and more comprehensive art-need, but of the second order. Here there is a sort of artistic commune, which possibly means to be sincere. But let us look at the elements! They are in general the more refined malcontents, who attain no genuine pleasure in themselves; the cultured, who have not become free enough to dispense with the consolations of religion, and yet do not find its incense sufficiently fragrant; the half-aristocratic, who are too weak to combat by a heroic conversion or renunciation the one fundamental error of their lives or the pernicious bent of their characters; the highly gifted, who think themselves too dignified to be of service by modest activity, and are too lazy for real, self-sacrificing work; girls who cannot create for themselves a satisfactory sphere of duties; women who have tied themselves by a light-hearted or nefarious marriage, and know that they are not tied securely enough; scholars, physicians, merchants, officials who specialised too early and never gave their lives a free enough scope—who do their work efficiently, it is true, but with a worm gnawing at their hearts; finally, all imperfect artists—these are nowadays the true needers of art! What do they really desire from art? Art is to drive away hours and moments of discomfort, boredom, half-bad conscience, and, if possible, transform the faults of their lives and characters into faults of world-destiny. Very different were the Greeks, who realised in their art the outflow and overflow of their own sense of well-being and health, and loved to see their perfection once more from a standpoint outside themselves. They were led to art by delight in themselves; our contemporaries—by disgust of themselves.'
(Human, all too human, part II)

I realise that this is in translation, but all that I get out of this is an impression that Nietzsche needed some proper training in how to write clearly.

As for linking it to GMG, well it's such a muddle that you could interpret it however you wanted to get it to apply. Much like how people handle the Bible, only worse. Mostly what I get is some hints of the tired old canard about the differences between popular music and art music.

[Cato]

I missed this topic somehow!

I mean Nietzsche, the further he got from his actual field of specialization, philology, the madder he sounded, but that's philosophy for you - madness.

The advance of syphilitic brain damage undoubtedly did not help.

Of interest as a tangent...

Philosophers were not always seen as models in ancient times, or into the medieval era.

An anonymous. early Byzantine book called The Laughter Lover (Philogelos) has a whole section of "Philosopher jokes."

Imagine Henny Youngman * as fast-talking Byzantine Greek:

"A philosopher bought a pair of pants.* *

But he could hardly put them on because they were too tight.

So he shaved his legs." 

* Henny Youngman was a great comedian in the 20th century, known as the King of the One-Liners.

(He speaks quickly, and is in his dotage in this performance: so, listen carefully!)

** Yes, pants were being worn in the early Middle Ages by at least some people.

[Florestan]

I missed this topic somehow!

The advance of syphilitic brain damage undoubtedly did not help.

Of interest as a tangent...

Philosophers were not always seen as models in ancient times, or into the medieval era.

An anonymous. early Byzantine book called The Laughter Lover (Philogelos) has a whole section of "Philosopher jokes."

Imagine Henny Youngman * as fast-talking Byzantine Greek:

"A philosopher bought a pair of pants.* *

But he could hardly put them on because they were too tight.

So he shaved his legs." 

* Henny Youngman was a great comedian in the 20th century, known as the King of the One-Liners.

(He speaks quickly, and is in his dotage in this performance: so, listen carefully!)

** es, pants were being worn in the early Middle Ages by at least some people.

Also, the classic story about Thales of Miletus who, watching the stars one night while strolling, fell in a hole, whereupon an old woman who saw the whole thing told him: Oh, Thales, how do you want to know what's in the skies when you don't even know what's at your feet?

Plus, G. F. Lichtenberg's rejoinder to Hamlet's "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.": The reverse is also true: in philosophy there are lots of things of which there is no trace in Heaven and Earth (quoted from memory).

[Henk]

That's indeed quite an unexpected volte-face, Henk. 

I got stuck in my life and in my head. I blamed Nietzsche. Recall his aphorism I posted earlier in this thread 'There is a Proper Time for Wrath and Punishment.'
There is the danger that Nietzsche gets right about everything. There's some danger of totalization. Nietzsche's philosophy is like a net. Does Nietzsche have enough sense of goodness to trust him in some degree?
I feel better again...... with Nietzsche.

[Henk]

I got stuck in my life and in my head. I blamed Nietzsche. Recall his aphorism I posted earlier in this thread 'There is a Proper Time for Wrath and Punishment.'
There is the danger that Nietzsche gets right about everything. There's some danger of totalization. Nietzsche's philosophy is like a net. Does Nietzsche have enough sense of goodness to trust him in some degree?
I feel better again...... with Nietzsche.

From Dawn:
'117.
In Prison.—My eye, whether it be keen or weak, can only see a certain distance, and it is within this space that I live and move: this horizon is my immediate fate, greater or lesser, from which I cannot escape. Thus, a concentric circle is drawn round every being, which has a centre and is peculiar to himself. In the same way our ear encloses us in a small space, and so likewise does our touch. We measure the world by these horizons within which our senses confine each of us within prison walls. We say that this is near and that is far distant, that this is large and that is small, that one thing is hard and another soft; and this appreciation of things we call sensation—but it is all an error per se! According to the number of events and emotions which it is on an average possible for us to experience in a given space of time, we measure our lives; we call them short or long, rich or poor, full or empty; and according to the average of human life we estimate that of other beings,—and all this is an error per se!

If we had eyes a hundred times more piercing to examine the things that surround us, men would seem to us to be enormously tall; we can even imagine organs by means of which men would appear to us to be of immeasurable stature. On the other hand, certain organs could be so formed as to permit us to view entire solar systems as if they were contracted and brought close together like a single cell: and to beings of an inverse order a single cell of the human body could be made to appear in its construction, movement, and harmony as if it were a solar system in itself. The habits of our senses have wrapped us up in a tissue of lying sensations which in their turn lie at the base of all our judgments and our "knowledge,"—there are no means of exit or escape to the real world! We are like spiders in our own webs, and, whatever we may catch in them, it will only be something that our web is capable of catching.'

[drogulus]

     OK, I'm here. 

     What I appreciate most about Nietzsche is his sense of humor.

[Henk]

I am befriended with Nietzsche, I can't help it. If his philosophy would be against me, as I felt yesterday, I would have to get rid of it, but then I'm cured again by some of his thoughts.
From 'Human, all too human. The wanderer and his shadow':
'169.
As Friends of Music.—Ultimately we are and remain good friends with music, as we are with the light of the moon. Neither, after all, tries to supplant the sun: they only want to illumine our nights to the best of their powers. Yet we may jest and laugh at them, may we not? Just a little, at least, and from time to time? At the (dutch translation: little) man in the moon, at the (little) woman in the music?'