Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[LKB]

Won't hear a word against Berlioz. He's capable of stirring delicacy, too.

It's not really a dig against Berlioz per se. Hector is, for instance, capable of a very specific quality of tenderness ( or vulnerability ) which I've not encountered anywhere else. " L'amour l'ardente flamme ", from La Damnation de Faust, is an example:

I think it's more a question of Beethoven's advantage in being more strongly grounded in the Classical tradition. He knew he could " find Heaven " within the string quartet, because Mozart and Haydn had already done so - large orchestral forces were not required.

[Karl Henning]

I think it's more a question of Beethoven's advantage in being more strongly grounded in the Classical tradition. He knew he could " find Heaven " within the string quartet, because Mozart and Haydn had already done so - large orchestral forces were not required.

I see what you say, now. I guess I don't see any question of advantage here, simply that each artist has both his own context and his own interior world. Wouldn't occur to me, e.g., to regard Ein deutsches Reqiuem as at all "less economical" than a Byrd motet.

[Iota]

It's not really a dig against Berlioz per se. Hector is, for instance, capable of a very specific quality of tenderness ( or vulnerability ) which I've not encountered anywhere else. " L'amour l'ardente flamme ", from La Damnation de Faust, is an example:

Oh my I can hardly tear myself away from this. La Damnation de Faust is not a work I know, but the cor anglais solo in that aria is indeed meltingly tender, and tonight seems like such a balm in this topsy-turvy world 

[LKB]

Oh my I can hardly tear myself away from this. La Damnation de Faust is not a work I know, but the cor anglais solo in that aria is indeed meltingly tender, and tonight seems like such a balm in this topsy-turvy world 

Indeed, and while you'll find recordings with arguably preferable singers ( not better, mind you, just true mezzos or Altos. Ms. Mathis was world-class in her day but was a true soprano, and this piece needs a deeper tone ), The Cor Anglais soloist here, Laurence Thorstenberg, was one of the very best.

[lordlance]

I did not expect much when I decided to listen to Estrada's Beethoven 8th with hr-sinfonieorchester (as part of his video cycle on YT) but I was very pleasantly surprised. The tempi are breakneck in a Zinman-esque fashion and this performance would not be my reference recording but it is very accomplished for its type and makes a better case for this frenetic pace that apparently Beethoven notated. It's also well-recorded so aural separation is easier to tell on speakers. Overall: it is something worth trying.

[lordlance]

To those it may interest - Mitropoulos rehearsing the Third Symphony:

[LKB]

I've just been watching a very interesting ( and very successful ) live performance of Symphony no. 5 from the Proms, recorded earlier this month:

Anyone who carries the Fifth within them, should experience this performance.

EDIT - I see that the video is no longer available as posted, I'll hunt around a bit to see if it is publicly available elsewhere. Hopefully, some folks took the chance to enjoy it here.

EDIT2 - Well, that didn't take long...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uep5LbSOfBQ

I watched a few minutes of the opening movement, the audio was fine and the video acceptable. Hopefully this iteration will prove more permanent.

[Symphonic Addict]

To be released on 14 November:



Smetana: String Quartet No. 1 orch. by Szell
Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 29 orch. by Weingartner

More interesting than the umpteenth recording of Beethoven's symphonies or string quartets it sure is without hesitation, even if Botstein allegedly is not the greatest of conductors.

[Jo498]

AFAIK there has not been a recording (at least I never encountered one, maybe there was one on LP that was never reissued) of the orchestration of op.106 except the one conducted by Weingartner himself in the 1930s that was on CD on Naxos historical!

[sabersosuper90]

I have listened to all his works, and each one of them is great in its own right, but I mostly like his string quartets and symphonies 😍💟❤️💚💙💛❣️💫✨🌟

[LKB]

I have listened to all his works, and each one of them is great in its own right, but I mostly like his string quartets and symphonies 😍💟❤️💚💙💛❣️💫✨🌟

When I wasn't dodging Tyrannosaurus Rex during my university days, I was fortunate enough to perform Symphonies 2, 5, 7 and 9, as well as reading through no. 6. I never had a shot at 1, 3, 4 or 8, which I still regret.

His late quartets were a revelation, and hardly a day passes without Opus 131 finding its way into my consciousness at some point.

[Opus131]

I think it's more a question of Beethoven's advantage in being more strongly grounded in the Classical tradition. He knew he could " find Heaven " within the string quartet, because Mozart and Haydn had already done so - large orchestral forces were not required.

The way i understand it, the tradition of the string quartet begun because Haydn had an affinity for string instruments on one hand (all the more since he had an actual violin virtuoso at his disposal, Luigi Tomasini, and i think Haydn himself would have probably liked to be a virtuoso violinist as well had he been given better training in his youth), and because the smaller setting allowed him to express himself in a more daring way and it was easier to find at least four musicians capable of meeting the demands of a more challenging kind of music (as well as having a taste for it) as opposed to an entire orchestra since large virtuoso ensembles were not as common in his day as they became later on, and performing orchestral music was a lot more expensive which meant there were certain prerogatives attached to it.

I believe there was also a kind of idea back in his day that challenging music was something musicians shared privately with each other and wasn't seen as something intended for "public" consumption. Thus, for Haydn the string quartet became the medium where he could write "for himself" and for others like himself (meaning other musicians or connoisseurs), hence the greater degree of expression and complexity of those works compared to the rest of his output, which had to conform to the demands of his employers.

By the time Beethoven came to the fore the situation was much different but i guess by that point the string quartet
had acquired a certain prestige and even though Beethoven didn't pull any punches in his symphonies the string quartet remained the place where he could get really serious (so to speak) along with his piano works which he reguard as equally personal since he was a virtuoso on the instrument.

In the case of Berlioz, it was the stage that defined his world and writing for the stage doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for the expression of private and personal feelings, and it changes the priorities of the composer in other ways since a stage has an audience who is interested in the drama rather and isn't just there to revel in the technical and expressive accomplishments of the composer.

I personally tend to prefer Beethoven to a large degree and i would consider myself to be among those who like to "revel" in said accomplishments but i can also see where Berlioz was coming from and appreciate his priorities.

[Jo498]

FX Richter might have written string quartets in 1757 (they were published only over 10 years later, at about the time of Haydn's op.9), Haydn wrote the divertimenti op.1+2 already around 1760. Boccherini wrote his first 6 op.2 at 18 in 1761, so I don't think one should overstress the particular conditions Haydn worked in, especially because we know very little why Haydn wrote the 18 quartets opp. 9,17,20 when he did. Tomasini was there before and after but there are large temporal and some stylistic gaps to the quartets before and after.

And Haydn was not really "more adventurous" in the string quartets. Cf. symphonies like 49 or 45. Also, the quartets, especially from op.33 onwards were "for sale" to the wide world, so had to appeal rather broadly while the symphonies before ca. #75 (~1780) were mostly for the Esterhazy court and a "failed experiment" would have been forgotten after a few weeks.

FWIW I think Beethoven was similarly "conservative" in op.18 and his first, maybe even the second symphony. In all of these works he clearly seems to have the double goal of a) proving that he could keep up with Mozart and Haydn and b) that he had a voice of his own.

I think he was far more adventurous in his earlyish piano sonatas, trios, maybe even violin sonatas.

[Brian]

Is there a preferred complete album of the Bagatelles for solo piano? Brendel, Osborne, Williencourt, Jando, etc.?

[Todd]

Is there a preferred complete album of the Bagatelles for solo piano? Brendel, Osborne, Williencourt, Jando, etc.?

Brendel and/or Sanchez.

[George]

Is there a preferred complete album of the Bagatelles for solo piano? Brendel, Osborne, Williencourt, Jando, etc.?

I second Brendel (and I don't usually like his Beethoven, but here he shines.)

[JBS]

Brendel and/or Sanchez.

Brendel Philips, Brendel Vox, or are they roughly equal?

[And same question for @George ]

[Todd]

Brendel Philips, Brendel Vox, or are they roughly equal?

Philips.

[George]

Brendel Philips, Brendel Vox, or are they roughly equal?

[And same question for @George ]

Philips

[Jo498]

Kovacevich/Philips (1970s) for all sets with opus numbers, Gould for op.126 (+ op.33).