The French Music Exploration thread

[Florestan]

Pierné: Ramuntcho

He also has a Rhapsodie basque (for violin and piano if I'm not mistaken).

[ritter]

There's also Philippe Gaubert's Au Pays Basque...

But, these by Pierné and Gaubert works are inspired by the French side of the Basque Country (where Pierre Loti's  novel Ramuntcho is set), so strictly speaking, they bear no relation to Spain at all...

[ritter]

¡Coño! Nobody has mentioned Ravel's Boléro!

[Florestan]

There's also Philippe Gaubert's Au Pays Basque...

But, these by Pierné and Gaubert works are inspired by the French side of the Basque Country (where the novel Ramuntcho is set), so strictly speaking, they bear no relation to Spain at all...

Well, Sabino Arana and his followers would have contended (and they probably still do) that was true even for the Spanish side of the Basque Country... 

Good evening, Rafael.

[Florestan]

¡Coño! Nobody has mentioned Ravel's Boléro!

Save for the title, I don't find anything even remotely Spanish about it. 

A much more valid entry is Saint-Saens - Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso for Violin and Orchestra, Op. 28 

[ritter]

Save for the title, I don't find anything even remotely Spanish about it. 

A much more valid entry is Saint-Saens - Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso for Violin and Orchestra, Op. 28 

Ah, yes, I forgot...the bolero is a dance of Czech origin 

There's Saint-Saëns Havanaise, op. 83.

[Symphonic Addict]

You reminded me of Saint-Saëns's Jota aragonesa, op. 64.

[Florestan]

Ah, yes, I forgot...the bolero is a dance of Czech origin 

So, if I orchestrated a Romanian folksong and named the composition Fandango, it would count as imitating Spanish music, right? 

What I implied, and which I stand by, is that the only Spanish connection of Ravel's Bolero is the title. I mean, play it to a Spaniard not familiar with "classical" music at all, let alone Ravel, and ask him/her if they heard anything Spanish in it. I'd be very curious about your findings.   

There's Saint-Saëns Havanaise, op. 83.

That too, of course.

[Florestan]

You reminded me of Saint-Saëns's Jota aragonesa, op. 64.

Hah! 

[Florestan]

Now that I think of it, a thread about "Spanish" music written by non-Spanish composers would be quite interesting and long.

[Madiel]

So, if I orchestrated a Romanian folksong and named the composition Fandango, it would count as imitating Spanish music, right? 

What I implied, and which I stand by, is that the only Spanish connection of Ravel's Bolero is the title. I mean, play it to a Spaniard not familiar with "classical" music at all, let alone Ravel, and ask him/her if they heard anything Spanish in it. I'd be very curious about your findings.   

On what basis do you claim that Ravel's Bolero isn't reflecting the rhythms of a Spanish bolero?

Because it's got the same rhythms as Chopin's one.

Edit: And of all the composers to pick on as inauthentic... it's fair enough to say that quite a few French composers don't know much about Spain, but Ravel knew more than most. Do you seriously want to pick the composer with a Spanish mother for your fight? The one who visited Spain for family reasons? The one who had Spanish folk songs sung to him when he was little?

[Florestan]

On what basis do you claim that Ravel's Bolero isn't reflecting the rhythms of a Spanish bolero?

What I claim is that, to my ears, it has very little, if anything, to do with Spanish music, be it authentic or postcard picture, and that if he named it whatever else, Bacchanale for instance, the Spanish connection would have escaped most, if not all, listeners.

YMMV.

[Madiel]

What I claim is that, to my ears, it has very little, if anything, to do with Spanish music, be it authentic or postcard picture, and that if he named it whatever else, Bacchanale for instance, the Spanish connection would have escaped most, if not all, listeners.

YMMV.

You seemed to claim rather more than that, but hey, if it's just your Romanian ears we are talking about I can ignore them in favour of Rafael's lived experience and more importantly Ravel's actual heritage.

Plus all the musicologists who would notice the bolero rhythm regardless of the title.

[Florestan]

You seemed to claim rather more than that, but hey, if it's just your Romanian ears we are talking about I can ignore them in favour of Rafael's lived experience and more importantly Ravel's actual heritage.

Ravel's actual heritage was French Basque, not Spanish Basque.  Ask Rafael. 

Da' nu-i bai!, say my Romanian ears. 

[Madiel]

Ravel's actual heritage was French Basque, not Spanish Basque.  Ask Rafael. 

Incorrect. His birthplace was on the French side. His HERITAGE was not confined to that.

[Florestan]

Incorrect

That rings a very unpleasant bell...

[Madiel]

That rings a very unpleasant bell...

I always found the fault to be the lack of follow-up. Your mileage may vary.

[Florestan]

I always found the fault to be the lack of follow-up. Your mileage may vary.

From Wikipedia:

His mother, Marie, née Delouart

I defy you to come up with an explanation for how Marie Delouart is a typical Basque name, be it French Basque or Spanish Basque. As for her being raised in Madrid, @ritter was born in Teheran of all places... 

[Madiel]

From Wikipedia:

His mother, Marie, née Delouart

I defy you to come up with an explanation for how Marie Delouart is a typical Basque name, be it French Basque or Spanish Basque. As for her being raised in Madrid, @ritter was born in Teheran of all places... 

Sigh. You just equated "raised" and "born". They're not synonymous.** But this has long gone past the point of being fruitful.

The main thing is that the music does have the rhythm of a bolero, and quite frankly if it didn't people would've been writing about the lack of a bolero rhythm for many decades. I can think of a few examples where authors on music point out that the title of a piece doesn't relate to its contents. Ravel's bolero was not one of them until you.

**PS/Edit: To the extent that cultural differences exist within a single country, describing me as being from Sydney just because I was born there would be somewhat upsetting.

[Florestan]

@Madiel

Never mind. I was in my recurrent contrarian mood.