Something philosophical to say

[Henk]

I had these two thoughts which are quite defining for how I lead my life, also self-educating myself:

'I go my way and I know no better way of life than adventure. The second best I know is getting ill to get healthy, it transcends one's life.'

'I need to be connected with mystery, it guides me, it provides me with meaning and dreams, it's like a compass, but ultimately it stays mystery and that's how it has to be.'

Does somebody recognize?

Do you have ideas about leading your life?

I think people can be divided between religious (dogmatic) way of leading a life and a secular way particulary devoid of content or consisting of very trivial ideas. I think however there are (of course) different ways, more personal and philosophical, such as my thoughts above express.

[steve ridgway]

I'm just paying attention to clues that come my way and trying to see patterns, don't know where it might be leading.

[Florestan]

I think people can be divided between religious (dogmatic) way of leading a life and a secular way particulary devoid of content or consisting of very trivial ideas. I think however there are (of course) different ways, more personal and philosophical, such as my thoughts above express.

I think people can be divided between those to philosophize their life and those who live their philosophy.

[Mandryka]

Getting ill to get healthy and life of adventure. Wasn't there some dude who used a prostitute to deliberately infect himself with syphilis, just to see what it's like. I think in Mann's Faustus?

[Florestan]

Getting ill to get healthy and life of adventure. Wasn't there some dude who used a prostitute to deliberately infect himself with syphilis, just to see what it's like. I think in Mann's Faustus?

Yes, Adrian Leverkuhn. Needless to say, it didn't end well.

[AnotherSpin]

Getting ill to get healthy and life of adventure. Wasn't there some dude who used a prostitute to deliberately infect himself with syphilis, just to see what it's like. I think in Mann's Faustus?

Yes, Doctor Faustus by Thomas Mann. I read this book about 40 years ago and no longer remember the details. It seems the prototype of the main character was Schoenberg? I'm not sure if Mann was aiming for satire, but 20th-century music as a consequence and product of syphilis seems like a rather fitting metaphor to me. By the way, Lenin also had syphilis, and his brain was partially destroyed for most of his adult life.

[pjme]

20th-century music as a consequence and product of syphilis seems like a rather fitting metaphor to me.

I wish i could understand your pain 

[Florestan]

I wish i could understand your pain 

He said something not philosophical but syphilosophical. 

[AnotherSpin]

I wish i could understand your pain 

No pain, a bit of disgust, mostly indifference. Of course, not towards all music of the 20th century, but towards the dominant trends represented by the book's protagonist.

If I see someone who has syphilis, why should I feel pain? Of course, I can feel compassion, as I may do for anyone sick. However, what truly causes painful feelings is people's tendency to value and take pleasure in everything that is sick. Thank God, even in the 20th century, there was plenty of healthy music, even if it wasn't in favor.

[Mandryka]

No pain, a bit of disgust, mostly indifference. Of course, not towards all music of the 20th century, but towards the dominant trends represented by the book's protagonist.

If I see someone who has syphilis, why should I feel pain? Of course, I can feel compassion, as I may do for anyone sick. However, what truly causes painful feelings is people's tendency to value and take pleasure in everything that is sick. Thank God, even in the 20th century, there was plenty of healthy music, even if it wasn't in favor.

OK, let's actually do some philosophy.

In David Hume's moral theory there's a mechanism he called "sympathy" Basically it's a sort of fundamental psychological causal mechanism. The idea is that if you are aware of someone who suffers then their suffering causes suffering in you. And the degree of suffering it causes in you is inversely proportional to their distance from you, and how closely they resemble you. (Like gravity!)  Contiguity and resemblance.

So for example, if I see my son suffering near me, I feel bad,  and that's because he resembles me and he's nearby. If I am aware of 10 people in deepest Africa suffering, I feel less bad myself because they are further away and resemble me less -- so sympathetic causality is weaker.

Hume used this to explain how it might be possible for a person to act in a way which benefits others -- i.e. act "morally."  He basically said that they did so to reduce the sympathetically induced suffering they themselves were experiencing.

[Florestan]

I fail to see the link between syphilis and sick music in the case of Schubert, Donizetti, Smetana and Hugo Wolf, all of them non-20th-century composers.

[Henk]

I think people can be divided between those to philosophize their life and those who live their philosophy.

I do both.

[Henk]

Getting ill to get healthy and life of adventure. Wasn't there some dude who used a prostitute to deliberately infect himself with syphilis, just to see what it's like. I think in Mann's Faustus?

Well in my case I didn't choose to get ill. I was depressed by society and went my own way, plunging into crisis and starting an adventure.

[Henk]

I'm just paying attention to clues that come my way and trying to see patterns, don't know where it might be leading.

Somewhat similar. I try to see where it leads to though, solving riddles, might not be the most sensible thing. It's a seduction, but it fails, should give up on it, and as I wrote let it be a mystery.

EDIT: Even thinking in terms of 'mystery' seems to make no sense.

Foresight is needed, direction is needed. One must walk the road to the next destination, but look no further. Looking further brings madness. This with respect to one's health and development.
It's also good to make dreams, they have meaning, but they can't be put to work in the sense of getting healthy or directing ones life.

This counts for me, can't generalize.

I feel messy, somewhat mad. Need to take my rest and get back on track.

[Florestan]

I was depressed by society

What did society do to you?

[Henk]

What did society do to you?

It was just my mood, something existential. I didn't have trust in the way things were going, I didn't feel a sense of future for society but in a stronger way for myself.

Life back then felt empty. I wasn't in a depression or anxious state. It was just the huge gap between my hapinnes as a child, the way I felt life and being before and how I felt it then. Nihilism, that's what I felt and I suppose it was characteristic of those times.

Somewhat paradoxical, I was happy in certain ways, running and cycling in the countryside, organizing jazz concerts. But I felt no future for myself and this expressed itself in a particular mood.

I just have my background and history. Maybe I had that mood just for a few weeks and then I took a decision, I can't remember exactly, that mood fitted with key moments of my life story up till then, out of the blue thoughts, though also coming from somewhere deep, from the confrontation of a happy life and a boring one. It was a flight, it was adventure. I probably would have failed in life otherwise. To take the decision to go the own way, or rather don't walk the already known paths, was and is for me the most couragous as well as dangerous thing somebody can do. I just wanted it, to go independently of society. Freedom, adventure, courage.

The times were nihilistic, I went for adventure and danger. At the same time I got into crisis. I got ill, though I got health too, but I got very dissociated from society. Nietzsche became my friend.

I tried to socialize and if society has done something to me it is this: even in voluntary work, you still got exploited, there's a production regime and picking order. So I have no regrets about how things have been going.

I still am a very sick man in all honesty. It's a matter of getting to the core of the problem. I am constantly reworking my philosophy, sometimes I feel more healthy, but then I just haven't gone deep enough.

[AnotherSpin]

OK, let's actually do some philosophy.

In David Hume's moral theory there's a mechanism he called "sympathy" Basically it's a sort of fundamental psychological causal mechanism. The idea is that when you are aware of someone who suffers then their suffering causes suffering in you. And the degree of suffering it causes in you is inversely proportional to their distance from you, and how closely they resemble you. (Like gravity!)  Contiguity and resemblance.

So for example, if I see my son suffering near me, I feel bad,  and that's because he resembles me and he's nearby. If I am aware of 10 people in deepest Africa suffering, I feel less bad myself because they are further away and resemble me less -- so sympathetic causality is weaker.

Hume used this to explain how it might be possible for a person to act in a way which benefits others -- i.e. act "morally."  He basically said that they did so to reduce the sympathetically induced suffering they themselves were experiencing.

Yes, that's why I'm talking about compassion. Hume's reasoning is clear. But I am talking about an unconditioned human response.

[hopefullytrusting]

Geez, must everything on these boards be so musty?

[Mandryka]

musty?

Damp and smelly?

[hopefullytrusting]

Damp and smelly?

Old, out-of-date.