Return (sort of)

[hopefullytrusting]

This is true of most forums that have been around from the early 2000s and are still struggling on. I usually see the blame put on Facebook, and the migrations said to start long before Trump.

But I don't disagree with everything else you've written.

I mean everything eventually dies. I'm amazed this forum is as active as it is, especially for how niche it is.

[Karl Henning]

I feel for you...truly!  I don't remember the posts, but that said,  I believe that you did what you thought was right.  And politics can be really divisive; I do get that.  And yes, I truly think that you try to be kind.  And as an American, it matters to me that we can talk kindly to each other and listen to what the other side has to say; we're in this together...along with the rest of the world.  You are not alone: 

K

Well said!

[AnotherSpin]

I am the moderator who deleted Spotted Horses' posts. I bet you would be surprised that he was one of my favorite posters here, but it is true. And I am not lying. I always enjoyed seeing what he was listening to, his opinions, his takes on music, his takes on audiophilia. I'm there for all of it. Frankly, more than most of you, if not all of you.

But I think that many of you (frankly, any of you who liked Madiel's post) have memory issues or simple comprehension issues. Probably more than half of the posters on this forum have left because they just could not stand the TOXIC POSTS about US Politics over and over and over and over again across the years. These comments were just filling up every corner of the diner. I know that some posters like Traverso are wise and just avoid the diner, but the reality is that many just can't take it. And frankly, they should not have to.

And those of you who are not from the US need to understand that US politics is POISON. Now more than ever. I can't believe that in the wake of post-9/11 and the second Gulf War, it is worse, but it is absolutely EXPONENTIALLY WORSE. It has gotten to a point where half the people in the USA demonize the other half and can't see eye to eye AT ALL.

Even in the diner, this is supposed to be an oasis from that constant negativity. It drives people to depression and drinking. It turns neighbors against each other. It has almost led to a civil war. And I am not joking. This forum is about enjoying Mozart and garbage that Ritter likes, such as Wagner and Stockhausen.

It turns out it drives out people in droves, and action needs to be taken when even posters that we appreciate, like Spotted Horses, cross the line. There is a need for strict moderation on US politics after all this time, and if you are a long-time poster and you don't appreciate that fact, then shame on YOU for your myopia and lack of empathy.

And if you want me to resign because you can't see the bigger picture, I will take it on the chin, unlike others and continue to post here without my moderation status.

But you need to understand that this is not supposed to be an echo chamber for either political party. This is supposed to be a place where we share our passion for classical music.

I take these actions not because I enjoy it or because I am on a power trip. I don't take it because I'm out of my mind on some kind of puritanical ego trip. I don't take action out of posters I don't like. I just want the forum NOT to DIE. And it is on LIFE SUPPORT. Can you realize how close we are to the death of the forum?

I have posted here since the early 2000s. And I'm telling you the cup runneth over then; there was so many posters, so much discussion. It was FANTASTIC. But today... there are a handful of active posters here, and if one thing goes wrong, the forum is dead forever. And that would be a shame. I'm such a hard-nosed jerk because I don't want that to happen.

Did you know that I checked the list of new, unregistered members nearly EVERY DAY for Spotted Horses return? And then it took me at least half an hour of fighting with the garbage forum software to get him to return. If you think that I am such a selfish, foolish moderator... would you do the same? WOULD YOU?

I think you're trying to be overly controlling. There are adults here who are almost always capable of controlling themselves. Well, except for one bully and a couple of whinу complainers. What doesn't really make a difference, in my opinion. People leave and come for a variety of reasons, and not at all because someone wrote something. It all comes down to there being fewer reasons to stay than there are to switch to something else. If the forum is gradually dying, you can't stop this process with bans and purges. All systems/organisms are born, flourish and die. It is natural. You can try to stop it or mummify it, but what's the point?

[ritter]

...

The last time I had a moderator say something to me, you were one of the 2 moderators involved and it was genuinely absurd. Claiming that discussing a performer on a new release was irrelevant in the New Releases thread was nothing more than reaching for a justification for saying something else entirely. The discussion about how absurd this was ended up being a lot longer than the initial conversation the moderators were apparently worried about. And why? Because you're frankly trigger happy. On at least one occasion David, you're the moderator who I got to admit to me that you were trigger happy. And while rapidly sweeping things away might make some forum members who can't handle the least sign of conflict relieved, it can also really annoy some of us who weren't actually trying to create the firestorm you panicked about.

I can also think of at least one time when a moderator deleted a post of mine that they'd misread. It didn't say what they thought (and what at least some posters thought perhaps). Maybe my choice of expression made my meaning unclear, but maybe that could've been cleared up if the first move hadn't been deletion.

I don't have a problem with the moderators stepping in when required. But just count to 10 a bit more often. For one thing, the capacity to lock threads for a time doesn't just give posters a chance to cool off, it gives the moderators a chance as well. And quite frankly sometimes it's the moderators who need it.

Oh, Madiel, it must be such a huge burden to be in constant possession of the truth! But, when one's memory is selective, then that responsibility becomes difficult to manage...

You keep insisting the moderation team stopped and erased a discussion about a specific performer (Jimmy Fallon, for those who do not remember). No, what the moderation team stopped was a discussion between you and another member —one who you claim is in your ignore list— where the virtues or lack thereof of Mr. Fallon were an excuse, once again, to settle scores and to engage in an argument that did not add anything to the issue at hand and just reflected the animosity between two members. And that's why we moderators stepped in (because, to be honest, we don't give a damn about Mr. Fallon and who likes or dislikes him).

And, frankly, some members might think twice about calling us moderators "trigger happy" and saying that members "can't handle the least sign of conflict" given the history of posts reported to us moderators.

I think you're trying to be overly controlling. There are adults here who are almost always capable of controlling themselves.

Sadly, many adults here often behave like children, and they know they're behaving like that. They think they have the right get away with it, but get indignant when others seem to be getting away with it.

[Spotted Horses]

I am the moderator who deleted Spotted Horses' posts. I bet you would be surprised that he was one of my favorite posters here, but it is true. And I am not lying. I always enjoyed seeing what he was listening to, his opinions, his takes on music, his takes on audiophilia. I'm there for all of it. Frankly, more than most of you, if not all of you.

But I think that many of you (frankly, any of you who liked Madiel's post) have memory issues or simple comprehension issues. Probably more than half of the posters on this forum have left because they just could not stand the TOXIC POSTS about US Politics over and over and over and over again across the years. These comments were just filling up every corner of the diner. I know that some posters like Traverso are wise and just avoid the diner, but the reality is that many just can't take it. And frankly, they should not have to.

And those of you who are not from the US need to understand that US politics is POISON. Now more than ever. I can't believe that in the wake of post-9/11 and the second Gulf War, it is worse, but it is absolutely EXPONENTIALLY WORSE. It has gotten to a point where half the people in the USA demonize the other half and can't see eye to eye AT ALL.

Even in the diner, this is supposed to be an oasis from that constant negativity. It drives people to depression and drinking. It turns neighbors against each other. It has almost led to a civil war. And I am not joking. This forum is about enjoying Mozart and garbage that Ritter likes, such as Wagner and Stockhausen.

It turns out it drives out people in droves, and action needs to be taken when even posters that we appreciate, like Spotted Horses, cross the line. There is a need for strict moderation on US politics after all this time, and if you are a long-time poster and you don't appreciate that fact, then shame on YOU for your myopia and lack of empathy.

And if you want me to resign because you can't see the bigger picture, I will take it on the chin, unlike others and continue to post here without my moderation status.

But you need to understand that this is not supposed to be an echo chamber for either political party. This is supposed to be a place where we share our passion for classical music.

I take these actions not because I enjoy it or because I am on a power trip. I don't take it because I'm out of my mind on some kind of puritanical ego trip. I don't take action out of posters I don't like. I just want the forum NOT to DIE. And it is on LIFE SUPPORT. Can you realize how close we are to the death of the forum?

I have posted here since the early 2000s. And I'm telling you the cup runneth over then; there was so many posters, so much discussion. It was FANTASTIC. But today... there are a handful of active posters here, and if one thing goes wrong, the forum is dead forever. And that would be a shame. I'm such a hard-nosed jerk because I don't want that to happen.

Did you know that I checked the list of new, unregistered members nearly EVERY DAY for Spotted Horses return? And then it took me at least half an hour of fighting with the garbage forum software to get him to return. If you think that I am such a selfish, foolish moderator... would you do the same? WOULD YOU?

I appreciate the effort you made to help me reestablish my account. I think that alone is enough to justify resumption of my participation.

However, I will reiterate that I, although I mentioned Mr T in my post, I was not making what I saw as a argument. I was illustrating the definition of censorship; government restricting its own speech vs government restricting the speech of a private entity. If you had simply PM'd me and pointed out that any mention of Mr T is verboten, I could have easily rephrased my post make the point without mention he, whose name can't be spoken.

"The forum is dying," is a common refrain. Is it really? It is not difficult to check.

I looked at the WAYLT thread from Oct 11, 2024, and noted all of the users who made posts. By my count there were a total of 66 posts from 23 distinct users. I went to a point near the beginning of the thread, randomly selecting Oct 9, 2019. There were 55 posts from 21 distinct users. No significant difference. If anything, after five years there is slightly more participation. I would have gone back farther in time, but I don't know how to find the previous WAYLT threads (they were periodically restarted after they got too big for the server to handle). Search for them didn't work.

If the forum is dying it is because the web site itself is not viable. New user registration has been broken for months. I see no indication that it will be fixed anytime soon, if ever. People a drifting away, as they have always done, but no one can drift in.

And what else can drive people off the forum? How about the misogyny of comparing Yuja Wang to a prostitute turning tricks in Time Square? How is that still on the forum? Is it okay because it wasn't addressed to a participant of the forum? It is the oldest misogynistic trick in the book, no matter what a woman achieves, it is secondary to her physical appearance. And this is just the most blatantly offensive recent example. But of course, it is all in good fun, and the women don't find this degrading, as we can see by the abundance of female participants we have here. Oh wait.

I'm tempted to delete my account again.

[Florestan]

First this:

Not me! I'm just enjoying my life. My great struggle is trying to prevent myself from upgrading my speakers.

then this: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33499.msg1588328.html#msg1588328

Rather incongruous, David. 

I think that many of you (frankly, any of you who liked Madiel's post) have memory issues or simple comprehension issues.

The big irony in this is that among those who you so harshly rebuke for liking Madiel's post there are Karl and Kalevala, who later liked, and publicly commended, your post too. I wonder what do you make of it. 

It turns out it drives out people in droves, and action needs to be taken

It also turns out that action taken to prevent members from leaving results in members leaving.   
 

when even posters that we appreciate, like Spotted Horses, cross the line.

I'm sorry, but @Spotted Horses did not cross any line. I know exactly what I'm talking about, because I was personally involved in that discussion, which incidentally was about censorship and which, by your admittance, was neither heated nor uncivil. Spotted Horses brought up Trump merely as an example of government censoring their own employees, the emphasis being on censorship, not on Trump. I am positively convinced that the discussion would have naturally and quietly faded away, had it not been for a certain poster who reported the post, thus triggering the whole kerfuffle. Which brings me back to what I said before and by which I firmly stand; the report function should be used sparingly because sometimes it can be more toxic and divisive than the allegedly toxic and divisive posts it is supposed to suppress. If the busybodies of this forum (you know who you are!) stopped acting like self-appointed guardians of public morality and started minding their own effing business, things would run smoother here.

I have posted here since the early 2000s.

So have I, but i don't share your idyllic view of GMG's past. There were lots of contentious threads back then as well, mostly about religion (always started by militant atheists, never by theists or agnostics). There were many obnoxious posters back then as well, one of them an unrepentant bully who eventually got banned, God rest him in peace. The nastiest thread ever, with insults and ad hominem far worse than anything ever encountered in the US Politics thread, started as a discussion about Haydn's string quartets. And people were leaving the forum back then as well, for various reasons, none of them having anything to do with politics, let alone Trump.

today... there are a handful of active posters here,

I'm sorry again, but this is a gross underestimation.

Beside, when comparing the quantity of membership today with that of the early GMG, you must take into account not only those who left for being upset with GMG per se, but also, and perhaps more importantly, those who died (God bless all their souls) and those who left from reasons not related to GMG per se, such as having just a transient interest in classical music, or simply having discovered, or re-discovered, that there is a whole life out there to be lived away from addictive internet boards. As others have mentioned, the decline in membership is a general phenomenon of forums, not a specific GMG one.

if one thing goes wrong, the forum is dead forever.

Well, there is one thing going wrong right now, namely this:

it took me at least half an hour of fighting with the garbage forum software to get him to return.

Precisely. New members being prevented from registering is far more dangerous to GMG's survival than some members leaving (and generally returning, or attempting to return, after a while).

As for the toxicity of the present US politics, no argument from me. I experienced exactly the same bitter division and hatred and civil-war-ish atmosphere during the early 1990s, when the whole of Romania was split between the supporters of liberal democracy and market economy and those of the former (actually, not so former at all) Communists who aimed for nothing more than Perestroika and in various occasions used extreme violence against protesters. Things have gone a long way since, though, and the political life is now much calmer and settled. So I can see where you're coming from.

There is, though, a reverse to the matter. Having lived in a regime which not only actively sought and promoted unflinching unanimity of thought and action in society, but also, and principally, violently enforced it, I am rather suspicious of such unanimity and believe that political disagreement and competition is a natural and healthy phenomenon --- of course, as long as it is kept strictly within the rule of law and civility.

If you think that I am such a selfish, foolish moderator... would you do the same? WOULD YOU?

What I personally think is that this is an overreaction. Nobody ever accused you, or any other mod for that matter, of being selfish and foolish.

I also think that the whole thing has been blown out of all proportions and a more relaxed attitude from all of us is in order. The world has greater and graver problems. 

[Madiel]

You keep insisting the moderation team stopped and erased a discussion about a specific performer (Jimmy Fallon, for those who do not remember). No, what the moderation team stopped was a discussion between you and another member —one who you claim is in your ignore list— where the virtues or lack thereof of Mr. Fallon were an excuse, once again, to settle scores and to engage in an argument that did not add anything to the issue at hand and just reflected the animosity between two members. And that's why we moderators stepped in (because, to be honest, we don't give a damn about Mr. Fallon and who likes or dislikes him).

Wow.

The posts actually still exist. Maybe you should go read them (noting that they now run across 2 different threads). Because what you said FIRST was "this conversation is irrelevant". That's my point.

Only after that did you get around to saying what you really meant: don't talk with Todd.

And apparently you didn't actually bother reading, or maybe believing, what I said about it. I did not comment because of Todd. I commented because by that point at least 3 different people seemed to have slightly lost their mind about Jimmy Fallon. You came along and became a fourth. I did NOT comment when only Todd had said something about Jimmy Fallon. GO AND LOOK.

This is not about me "possessing the truth". This is about facts that can still be documented, because unlike some other instances, the posts weren't deleted. They were just moved into a stupid thread. Only the first two comments about Jimmy Fallon weren't moved, because... the whole exercise was completely illogical, that's why.

Nor is it about me having "constant possession". At no stage at this conversation have I said that I'm always right. The problem I'm having is that it seems that the moderators, unlike me, believe that they're perfect. Well you're not. As much as I like you, the bit where you said "talking about Jimmy Fallon is irrelevant" before admitting what you were actually doing, which was panicking because if I'd argued with Todd a couple of days before and therefore I couldn't possibly be trusted to have learned anything, that bit I really didn't have much respect for what you were doing.

The conversation with Todd was done with. You came crashing in. Go back and READ IT.

PS: Oh, and by the way, Todd is indeed in my Ignore list. There is exactly one thread where I find him useful and regularly read his posts: The New Releases thread. So terribly sorry for doing that, how dare I take an interest in CONTENT.

[ritter]

Well, we can keep writing pages and pages about this, Madiel. The fact is, you know perfectly well why that discussion had to be stopped. But if you feel you've been wronged, well, it's a pity.

In general, the problem with moderation is perfectly easy to explain:

If I am the target of moderation, or my posts are deleted, then "moderation bad, BAD!!". If the moderators do not act towards other members the way I wish, then "moderation bad, BAD!" as well. If the moderators act as I want them to, then "moderation good, GOOD!".

Best,

[Madiel]

Well, we can keep writing pages and pages about this, Madiel. The fact is, you know perfectly well why that discussion had to be stopped. But if you feel you've been wronged, well, it's a pity.

Best,

What's a pity is that this very post shows a lack of reading comprehension. I know why you think it had to be stopped. My points are:

1. You didn't start by giving that reason, you gave another one. This is directly verifiable from your own posts. Would you like me to link to them?

2. The conversation had already stopped before you rushed in to stop it. I have told you this several times now, and yet you insist on either ignoring me or calling me a liar.

[ritter]

What's a pity is that this very post shows a lack of reading comprehension. I know why you think it had to be stopped. My points are:

1. You didn't start by giving that reason, you gave another one. This is directly verifiable from your own posts. Would you like me to link to them?

2. The conversation had already stopped before you rushed in to stop it. I have told you this several times now, and yet you insist on either ignoring me or calling me a liar.

Oh, man. Para ti la perra gorda... 

[Madiel]

Oh, man. Para ti la perra chica... 

No entiendo.

Adiós.

[Madiel]

No Rafael, don't like the post. The fact that I walk off because you are repeatedly insulting me is not something to enjoy.

[Madiel]

And what else can drive people off the forum? How about the misogyny of comparing Yuja Wang to a prostitute turning tricks in Time Square? How is that still on the forum? Is it okay because it wasn't addressed to a participant of the forum? It is the oldest misogynistic trick in the book, no matter what a woman achieves, it is secondary to her physical appearance. And this is just the most blatantly offensive recent example. But of course, it is all in good fun, and the women don't find this degrading, as we can see by the abundance of female participants we have here. Oh wait.

My Spanish is not quite good enough to know whether I just received a gendered insult from a moderator. Which he's now modified slightly, but it still has the word "perra" in it, which is a feminine word I'm getting translated as "bitch" (as in, it literally means a female dog). The idiomatic meaning of the overall phrase escapes me. Whether I'm associated with a "bitch" somehow or whether I am one.

But hey, everything's my fault and I can't be trusted.

[Traverso]

Communication seems to be an ongoing problem. Instead of solving anything, misunderstandings and resentment continue. This is what is damaging the forum. Let's focus on what should be the central point of a music forum and not keep warming up the dead bodies. leave well enough alone....

[ritter]

My Spanish is not quite good enough to know whether I just received a gendered insult from a moderator. Which he's now modified slightly, but it still has the word "perra" in it, which is a feminine word I'm getting translated as "bitch" (as in, it literally means a female dog). The idiomatic meaning of the overall phrase escapes me. Whether I'm associated with a "bitch" somehow or whether I am one.

But hey, everything's my fault and I can't be trusted.

"Para ti la perra gorda" is a Spanish expression which means (roughly) "keep the change".

"Perra gorda" and "perra chica" were Spanish coins minted in the late 19th century, worth 10 and 5 cents of a peseta, respectively. I changed the idiom from "chica" to "gorda" because, even if both versions are used, I realised the latter is more common and easier to find in online translation tools that are available to anyone.

So, the gist of my message is "you get to have the last word" (and that is why I liked your subsequent message). And frankly, I cannot find a single insulting term addressed to you by me in this or any other thread.

But, again, para ti la perra gorda, Trevor.

Have a good night,

Rafael

[AnotherSpin]

Oh, man. Para ti la perra gorda... 

 

[Traverso]

"Para ti la perra gorda" is a Spanish expression which means (roughly) "keep the change".

"Perra gorda" and "perra chica" were Spanish coins minted in the late 19th century, worth 10 and 5 cents of a peseta, respectively. I changed the idiom from "chica" to "gorda" because, even if both versions are used, I realised the latter is more common and easier to find in online translation tools that are available to anyone.

So, the gist of my message is "you get to have the last word" (and that is why I liked your subsequent message). And frankly, I cannot find a single insulting term addressed to you by me in this or any other thread.

But, again, para ti la perra gorda, Trevor.

Have a good night,

Rafael

I also initially thought it was an insult. It's good that this has been corrected and it makes it clear once again how difficult communication can be.

[Florestan]

I also initially thought it was an insult.

Well, it would have been easier for @ritter to just write "Whatever you say!", which is the correct, although not literal, English translation. Any misunderstanding would have been avoided. Alternatively, you could have googled it. 

AFAIK, @ritter has no history of ever insulting anyone, neither when he was a simple member nor after he became a mod.

[Traverso]

Well, it would have been easier for @ritter to just write "Whatever you say!", which is the correct, although not literal, English translation. Any misunderstanding would have been avoided. Alternatively, you could have googled it. 

AFAIK, @ritter has no history of ever insulting anyone, neither when he was a simple member nor after he became a mod.

Right, I do not comment any further on this,it might lead to abandon this forum.I better remain  posting in what are you listening...

[AnotherSpin]

Communication seems to be an ongoing problem. Instead of solving anything, misunderstandings and resentment continue. This is what is damaging the forum. Let's focus on what should be the central point of a music forum and not keep warming up the dead bodies. leave well enough alone....

Nothing new. Human relationships are characterized by unresolved tension, where each person seeks to assert their ego, which often leads to conflicts and misunderstandings. Each person is a subject, for whom others are objects of perception. Individuals project their expectations and fears onto others, which frequently leads to misunderstanding and alienation.

Martin Buber distinguished between two types of relationships: I-Thou and I-It. In I-Thou relationships, we can see the other person as a unique and complete individual, not separated; while in I-It relationships, we see the other as an instrument for our needs, which becomes the root of misunderstanding and resentment.

Speaking from my personal experience on this forum, I don't even begin to expect to be understood. Not natural, but normal.