Glaring Omission

[71 dB]

Oh, dear! Oh, dear! Oh, dear!

Here we have two most respectable guys who are better educated, better clothed, better sheltered and better fed than most people 200 hundred years ago; also, they have better healthcare and are more secure in their life and property than most monarchs 200 years ago; also, they have virtually free access to more music than all the music-loving, music-sponsoring aristocrats, high clergy and high bourgeoisie 200 years ago combined  could not have even begin to hope having paid access to --- yet by listening to them an alien from Mars would think non-aristocratic, non-high-clergy and non-high-bourgeoisie people are today worse off than they were 200 years ago. Actually, make it 150, 100 or 50, the point still stands.

AFAIC and IMNSHO, the exact reverse is true: never in the whole recorded history have non-aristocratic, non-clergy and non-high-bourgeoisie people been better off than today.

When I said life was better in the past, I meant my past, not 200 years ago! Just 20 years ago I felt like "belonging" in this World much more and I didn't suffer from the anxiety I suffer today. 20 years ago I didn't need to do depression prevention: Life was good enough to keep depression away.

The problem isn't so much the absolute quality of life, but what it is compared to what it could be and has been a decade or two before. Imagine what we could have if the right people were in power instead the lunatics we have in power in so many countries.

[Florestan]

Imagine what we could have if the right people were in power instead the lunatics we have in power in so many countries.

AFAIC this is an exercise in futility. I very much prefer to actually enjoy what I can enjoy here and now than to imagine what I could enjoy in unattainable circumstances. A tolerable reality is always preferable to a utopia for two reasons: (1) the former is real, the latter is imaginary, and (2) trying to achieve the latter more often than not results in much worsening the former.

[AnotherSpin]

When I said life was better in the past, I meant my past, not 200 years ago! Just 20 years ago I felt like "belonging" in this World much more and I didn't suffer from the anxiety I suffer today. 20 years ago I didn't need to do depression prevention: Life was good enough to keep depression away.

The problem isn't so much the absolute quality of life, but what it is compared to what it could be and has been a decade or two before. Imagine what we could have if the right people were in power instead the lunatics we have in power in so many countries.

Power is no place for the right people, only deranged lunatics fit the job description.

[hopefullytrusting]

When I said life was better in the past, I meant my past, not 200 years ago! Just 20 years ago I felt like "belonging" in this World much more and I didn't suffer from the anxiety I suffer today. 20 years ago I didn't need to do depression prevention: Life was good enough to keep depression away.

The problem isn't so much the absolute quality of life, but what it is compared to what it could be and has been a decade or two before. Imagine what we could have if the right people were in power instead the lunatics we have in power in so many countries.

Completely understand.

I think that is one of the reasons I've gone back to physical media. I can't control everything, but I was happier, and appreciated more, when the object was in my hand. It felt like the completion of a project. Nothing with the digital domain gives me that feeling.

[Florestan]

@71dB @hopefullytrusting

Music (at least in my book) is meant to be listened to. The medium through which the listening is achieved is completely immaterial (pun).

Suppose the only way to listen to your favorite music is by streaming. What would you do then?

Besides, for someone who condemns the acquisitiveness of greedy billionaires, such insistence on owning the physical CD is quite strange. 

[Elgarian Redux]

If we're mentioning glaring omissions, l suppose this operatic baritone must name Verdi.

I'd never have been brave enough to admit to this, but now I know there's at least one other, I can say there are two of us.

I've quoted this story before, but long ago so it might be OK to repeat it. I was in conversation with a colleague, who asked, 'What are you listening to these days?'
'Wagner,' I said.
'Wagner?!' he exclaimed. 'But there are no decent tunes in Wagner!'
'What are you listening to then?' I replied.
'Verdi,' he said.
'Verdi?!, I exclaimed. 'But there are no decent tunes in Verdi!'

In a discussion with another musical friend, at another time, I mentioned that I always found the tunes in Verdi's operas disappointing. 'They seem so ordinary,' I said. 'Sort of commonplace. I just can't get past that ordinariness.'
My friend nodded sagely, and said, 'Well, remember what his name is, translated into English: Joe Green.'

[Florestan]

I'd never have been brave enough to admit to this, but now I know there's at least one other, I can say there are two of us.

I've quoted this story before, but long ago so it might be OK to repeat it. I was in conversation with a colleague, who asked, 'What are you listening to these days?'
'Wagner,' I said.
'Wagner?!' he exclaimed. 'But there are no decent tunes in Wagner!'
'What are you listening to then?' I replied.
'Verdi,' he said.
'Verdi?!, I exclaimed. 'But there are no decent tunes in Verdi!'

Depends on what one means by decent.

In a discussion with another musical friend, at another time, I mentioned that I always found the tunes in Verdi's operas disappointing. 'They seem so ordinary,' I said. 'Sort of commonplace. I just can't get past that ordinariness.'
My friend nodded sagely, and said, 'Well, remember what his name is, translated into English: Joe Green.'

To my ears, Joe Green sounds way better (surely more euphonious) than Dick Carter. 

[Elgarian Redux]

To my ears, Joe Green sounds way better (surely more euphonious) than Dick Carter. 

Maybe 'Joe Green' doesn't translate well into Romanian, Andrei? In English there's a sort of solid down-to-earthness to it. Or so it seemed to me and my friend at the time.

[Madiel]

Meanwhile we should all use streaming services to at least check out some more of the work of John Brook.

Edit: It turns out those obscure things in the Brook Works Catalogue are each only about a minute long. I found a "volume one" on Idagio. I've heard 4 while typing this post.

[Karl Henning]

Tangentially, it chanced that I came to really like Wagner's music before Verdi's. When I was a mere slip of a lad, the Prelude to Die Meistersinger was on an LP I had.

[Florestan]

Maybe 'Joe Green' doesn't translate well into Romanian, Andrei? In English there's a sort of solid down-to-earthness to it. Or so it seemed to me and my friend at the time.

Well, Verdi would have never minded being called a down-to-earth person, that's what he was all his life. 

[ritter]

Well, Verdi would have never minded being called a down-to-earth person, that's what he was all his life. 

Yep, a bit of a cafone... 

[Elgarian Redux]

Well, Verdi would have never minded being called a down-to-earth person, that's what he was all his life. 

Ah yes! Well that's exactly the point my friend was making, and indeed that knowledge (his, not mine) was the origin of his joke. So we have gone around the houses and all is neatly resolved. All are satisfied, and have enjoyed the ride.

[Cato]

It has probably struck everyone that, for most people on the planet, all of Classical Music is a "glaring omission" in their lives.     


And it is true that more people live in comfort than ever before: as a volunteer for the St. Vincent De Paul Society, I can attest that the poor people in America still have wide-screen televisions, cars, cell phones, etc. which a poor person in South America would not have.


I am quite happy to have so much music at my fingertips, with such wonderful quality, which was not possible in earlier eras.

To return: I have forgotten to add English composers as another "glaring omission" in much of my formation and since then.

Exceptions: R.V. Williams, Benjamin Britten, Robert Simpson, whom I discovered because of his excellent books on Bruckner, Harrison Birtwhistle,...

and Luke Ottevanger! 

I have not listened to the first four in a very long time, so perhaps this topic is a catalyst for returning to their works.

[DaveF]

Robert Simpson, whom I discovered because of his excellent books on Bruckner, Harrison Birtwhistle,... and Luke Ottevanger! 

Robert Simpson wrote a book about Luke?! (Runs off and hides somewhere in the Grammar Grumble thread...)

Thread duty: the only Liszt piano music in my collection is his transcriptions of the Beethoven symphonies.

[LKB]

It has probably struck everyone that, for most people on the planet, all of Classical Music is a "glaring omission" in their lives.     


And it is true that more people live in comfort than ever before: as a volunteer for the St. Vincent De Paul Society, I can attest that the poor people in America still have wide-screen televisions, cars, cell phones, etc. which a poor person in South America would not have.


I am quite happy to have so much music at my fingertips, with such wonderful quality, which was not possible in earlier eras.

To return: I have forgotten to add English composers as another "glaring omission" in much of my formation and since then.

Exceptions: R.V. Williams, Benjamin Britten, Robert Simpson, whom I discovered because of his excellent books on Bruckner, Harrison Birtwhistle,...

and Luke Ottevanger! 

I have not listened to the first four in a very long time, so perhaps this topic is a catalyst for returning to their works.

I hope at some point you'll be able to add George Butterworth to that list. He wrote some wonderful vocal music, and a few orchestral miniatures which contain phrases as beautiful as can be found anywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Butterworth

[Karl Henning]

Robert Simpson wrote a book about Luke?! (Runs off and hides somewhere in the Grammar Grumble thread...)

(* chortle *)

@Luke can use the smile!

[71 dB]

@71dB @hopefullytrusting

Music (at least in my book) is meant to be listened to. The medium through which the listening is achieved is completely immaterial (pun).

Suppose the only way to listen to your favorite music is by streaming. What would you do then?

Besides, for someone who condemns the acquisitiveness of greedy billionaires, such insistence on owning the physical CD is quite strange. 

I agree that music is meant to be listened to. In that sense it doesn't matter much if the music is streamed online or stored on a CD/vinyl/etc. However, I don't need to limit myself to music alone. Collecting music on physical media serves as a hobby. My dad collects stamps. I collect physical media.

It is not guaranteed music I want to listen to stays on streaming services forever. Music disappears all the time. There are a lot of music I can only listen to by streaming so I stream. For example, yesterday I listened to Jonny L's X3 on spotify, because that's the only way it is available. I also stream a lot of vaporwave on Bandcamp, because that kind of music is only sometimes released on physical media in extremely limited way if at all (say 50 copies on CD and 300 copies on C-cassette).

I also use streaming to explore music, to find out how much I like it. I do stream a lot, but once I have found something I like a lot, I want to own it on CD if possible. Is that really that surprising for someone who was born in 1971 witnessing the coming of CD in the early 80's and started buying CDs in 1990 when I was able to buy my first CD player? To me CD represents the good old days when I was happier. CDs help me to widthstand the coldness of today's World. Why do I even need to explain these things? If streaming gives you everything you want in life then good for you, but my past is part of me.

The problem with billionaires is that by using their vast wealth to influence society they cause a lot of suffering for those who can't fight back. They hoard wealth by exploiting other people and avoiding paying their fair share of taxes. They "hide" their money to places were the money passively gains profit instead of flowing back into the circulation (weak multiplying effect). So, a Russian oligarch buying a £10 million property in London is totally different from my hobby of buying some CDs every now and then (in 2024 I bought 23 CDs, about 2 CDs per month and the total cost was 156 euros). Billionaires simply should not exist. $999 million should be enough money for anyone. Even that is excessive. We should look at the flip side. All the wealth of billionaires is away from the rest. Do poor people matter at all?

[71 dB]

AFAIC this is an exercise in futility. I very much prefer to actually enjoy what I can enjoy here and now than to imagine what I could enjoy in unattainable circumstances. A tolerable reality is always preferable to a utopia for two reasons: (1) the former is real, the latter is imaginary, and (2) trying to achieve the latter more often than not results in much worsening the former.

It certainly is an exercise in futility, but I'm an INTJ meaning introverted intuition is my dominant cognitive function. My brain generates alternative possibilities for what is. I can't turn off my brain imagining what could/should have been. I can only do things that take my mind off of these things as much as possible. That's what I am trying to do, but it isn't 100 % effective.

A few decades ago my mind came up with nightmare scenarios for the future as well as rosy scenarios. What the World is today is not that far from those nightmares. The details are different  of course because nobody can predict accurately the future decades ahead, but the "feel of anxiety" is similar.

[Madiel]

also use streaming to explore music, to find out how much I like it. I do stream a lot, but once I have found something I like a lot, I want to own it on CD if possible. Is that really that surprising for someone who was born in 1971 witnessing the coming of CD in the early 80's and started buying CDs in 1990 when I was able to buy my first CD player?

As someone of a similar vintage, no it's not all surprising.

I do feel like this whole conversation has been a bit at cross-purposes, though. We seem to have ended up blurring together what we've never listened to (like you, I use streaming for exploration of repertoire) with what we haven't made part of our personal library. Looking back, you said that COLLECTING music was expensive and @DavidW then reacted on the basis that you'd said LISTENING was expensive. Which isn't what you had said.