Glaring Omission

[hopefullytrusting]

In the UK, based on my local experience, I would estimate that every town of medium-size and above has a choral society, who generally mount three or four concerts per year with orchestra, usually of fairly standard repertoire (Mozart masses, Fauré Requiems etc.) but in some cases (including one local to me) of often fairly neglected and challenging works.  Standards are amateur, but quite acceptable.  Concerts are generally sold out.  What is worrying is that the average age of members of these societies is quite high - if I'm ever called in myself to make up numbers, I'm the baby of the bass section at 65.  So the situation is fairly healthy at the moment, but "forward, tho' I cannot see, I guess an' fear!"

Worth mentioning too that the English cathedral choral tradition is alive and well - less so in Wales, sadly.

Agree in full here, and it helps that maybe the most famous classical person living - Anna Lapwood - is also a choral conductor (she also composes, and is an organ master).

[pjme]

..... that really strikes me, which I've remarked on a few times, is that culturally we seem to have completely fallen out of love with choral music.

In Belgium and the Netherlands amateur choral societies do survive, but -as in Great Britain - the average age of the members is often high. There are some younger groups  - they sing a different repertoire.

https://www.brusselschoralsociety.com/listen/
https://www.cathedralisbruxellensis.be/en/
https://www.kathedraalmechelen.be/muziek/kathedraalkoren/het-mechels-kathedraalkoor
https://dekathedraal.be/en/music-cathedral



I love Brahms' choral works , Rudolf Escher, Zoltan Kodaly, Poulenc, Lodewijk Devocht, Johan Duyck....

[71 dB]

I came to romantic nationalism through my consumption of Dvorak, especially his symphonic poems.

I have never been into Dvořák much myself for some reason. I have very little of his music*, but I do have a NAXOS CD of the Symphonic Poems Opp. 108-110. I don't remember much of the music and it has been probably 20 years since I have listened to the CD. It might be a good idea to revisit it in the near future... 

* I do like his Cello Concerto, Op. 104 and also the Slavonic Rhapsodies, Op. 45. However, his symphonies don't have much appeal to me for some reason... ...perhaps I find Dvořák to be too soft/poetic composer for symphonies?

[71 dB]

I listen to hardly any choral music myself and if I do, it is Elgar's Part Songs.

[hopefullytrusting]

I have never been into Dvořák much myself for some reason. I have very little of his music*, but I do have a NAXOS CD of the Symphonic Poems Opp. 108-110. I don't remember much of the music and it has been probably 20 years since I have listened to the CD. It might be a good idea to revisit it in the near future... 

Well, the reasons I love symphonic poems so much is that it already has a structural system pre-built into it which is understandable by me.

I also find that the composers tend to take certain forms more seriously than others, but they all seem to let loose and have fun in symphonic poems.

That's why I'm drawn to them.

[Florestan]

In short, whether or not anyone here on the forum doesn't go for classical vocal music, the cultural zeitgeist and the market certainly don't seem to go for it.

Indeed. And to go back to a point made earlier by @Jo498 , it was possible for a non-Italian/non-French composer to have an opera-free career but it was quite impossible to have a vocal-music-free career. Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Grieg wrote tons of Lieder and choral music, precisely because, as you aptly put it, the cultural zeitgeist and the market put a premium on such works. It was actually not uncommon to have a career based almost exclusively on vocal music, as witnessed by Carl Loewe, Robert Franz and Hugo Wolf. Paradoxically enough, it's precisely in Italy and France, where opera reigned supreme, that some composers, first and foremost Paganini, Chopin and Liszt, were able to achieve fame and popularity exclusively with instrumental compositions --- and still, the first two were heavily influenced by the belcanto style while the latter wrote tons of reminiscences, variations and pot-pourris on operatic themes.

[Florestan]

the reasons I love symphonic poems so much is that it already has a structural system pre-built into it which is understandable by me.

That's a strange assertion. I should have thought the above applies to symphonies much more than to symphonic poems. What pre-built structural commonalities do you find between, say, Les preludes and Till Eulenspiegels Lustige Streiche?

[hopefullytrusting]

That's a strange assertion. I should have thought the above applies to symphonies much more than to symphonic poems. What pre-built structural commonalities do you find between, say, Les preludes and Till Eulenspiegels Lustige Streiche?

My PhD is in rhetoric. One of my areas of specialty is literary structure, in fact, it is one of the things I teach.

[Florestan]

My PhD is in rhetoric. One of my areas of specialty is literary structure, in fact, it is one of the things I teach.

Congrats on your academic achievements, keep up the good work. You didn't answer my question, though.

[Florestan]

how much is because sung music imposes language barriers that instrumental music doesn't.

I address this very topic here: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33840.0.html

[Madiel]

I address this very topic here: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33840.0.html

Yeah, but I don't agree with you.

[Florestan]

Yeah, but I don't agree with you.

No problem at all. I just want to open a discussion, not to impose my views on anyone.

[Madiel]

No problem at all. I just want to open a discussion, not to impose my views on anyone.

Oh yes I know, I'm not suggesting you're trying to impose your views here. But I've known for quite a while that we don't share the same views on this.

And while there are certainly people out there like you that don't worry about language, I'm also pretty confident that there are enough people who DO care about language that not being able to understand something is a barrier that has an impact on market share (including an impact on what classical music people are most likely to listen to). Most pop music is in English because that's the most common language in most of the market that's being aimed for. Eurovision abandoned it's rule that you had to use a national language because a lot of countries felt they were at a disadvantage.

[Karl Henning]

The thing that really strikes me, which I've remarked on a few times, is that culturally we seem to have completely fallen out of love with choral music.

Many of the great composers of the 19th century and early 20th century wrote a lot of choral music. It crops up when I do my explorations of a composer's body of work. But recordings of this stuff are really thin on the ground in comparison to their orchestral music, which equally requires a whole group of people to come together to perform it. We just don't have a sort of collection of well-regarded choirs doing the repertoire in the same way that we have orchestras. The music does still exist and get performed, but the status of it seems to be much reduced.

It wouldn't apply to people here, but in general culture there is quite definitely a sense that classical music is instrumental. I still remember having a heated argument about this with multiple people in a particular context, they listened to a lot of music but they didn't normally listen to classical music and were fully on board with the notion that an upcoming classical "song cycle" by Tori Amos was not in fact going to involve any singing. I found this proposition mystifying but I couldn't argue them out of it. To them a classical "song" could be purely instrumental. They were totally wrong about the song cycle in question... but then Tori Amos also issued a purely instrumental version of the album because so many fans clamoured for it. Because it was a classical album they wanted an instrumental version of it, largely shorn of the actual melody line, and it wasn't because they wanted to do karaoke with it.

So in general culture, it's classical instrumental music that now has the status. I'm not sure how much of that is just that most people switched to more recent popular music for singing (where solo vocal is king), or how much is because sung music imposes language barriers that instrumental music doesn't.

Yes, anyway. In short, whether or not anyone here on the forum doesn't go for classical vocal music, the cultural zeitgeist and the market certainly don't seem to go for it.

In New England in the first half of the 20th c. you couldn't throw a packet of frozen cranberries without hitting an amateur choral society. Americans have forgotten how to sing together. It'll kill William Billings.

[Karl Henning]

I listen to hardly any choral music myself and if I do, it is Elgar's Part Songs.

You'd perhaps enjoy Holst's, as well.

[lordlance]

No. In German lands, England and Russia as well.

Actually, it's the Italians who invented orchestral music and produced some of the finest and most influential composers in this respect. And the French, while coming rather late to the party, are second to none in orchestral color and subtlety.

Not outsized at all, entirely commensurate with the political, cultural and social role religion played back then.

You made three ill-informed statements above, I humbly suggest you pick up a music history handbook.

1. Fair but still it wasn't all consuming. Quite clearly not. 
2. Which Italians are you referring to?
2b. Re:French like I wrote already. Not really. Not to me in any case. 
3. We'll I'm using outsized relative to my stance as an atheist but then people can disagree. Regardless, 'overwhelming' if you prefer. 

[steve ridgway]

Most of the 'core repertoire', I imagine. Not because I am being clever or obscure, but because I have followed my nose (ears) with stuff I like, and you can't be familiar with everything. 

Same here, having stumbled upon 20th century classical but not really enjoying earlier music. And like @Papy Oli wanting to enjoy my collection more rather than chase diminishing returns.

[Florestan]

Which Italians are you referring to?

To name only the most influential: Arcangelo Corelli, Antonio Vivaldi, Giovanni Battista Sammartini, Muzio Clementi.

Now, Baroque and Classical might not be among your favorite periods but this is immaterial. The music you like did not appear out of thin air.

Re:French like I wrote already. Not really. Not to me in any case.

Not really what?

We'll I'm using outsized relative to my stance as an atheist but then people can disagree. Regardless, 'overwhelming' if you prefer.

Applying contemporary standards and criteria to the past is a mistake which results in misleading or downright false conclusions. Atheism has got nothing to do with it.

[hopefullytrusting]

Same here, having stumbled upon 20th century classical but not really enjoying earlier music. And like @Papy Oli wanting to enjoy my collection more rather than chase diminishing returns.

This makes so much sense. The "dilemma" of access vs. curation arises, at least for me.

Just because I can doesn't mean I should.

[Jo498]

In the UK, based on my local experience, I would estimate that every town of medium-size and above has a choral society, who generally mount three or four concerts per year with orchestra, usually of fairly standard repertoire (Mozart masses, Fauré Requiems etc.) but in some cases (including one local to me) of often fairly neglected and challenging works.  Standards are amateur, but quite acceptable.  Concerts are generally sold out. 

that's similar in Germany although the details are different with only a few traditional cathedral choirs in respective cities but the medium sized town (75k) where I went to school as a kid had two large church organized amateur choirs that would do decent performances of the Bach passions or similar works (with hired soloists). Admittedly the breadth of repertoire was not so great, partly probably because they would not often want to get a full orchestra for 19th century pieces like Mendelssohn's oratorios or the Brahms Requiem, so these were performed far less frequently than the Christmas oratorio or Mozart Requiem.

Additionally there are still quite a few choral associations that do a cappella or keyboard accompanied repertoire, there are also national and international competitions for them and young people participate. There's more choral/singing activity than one might imagine.