Rimsky-Korsakov recommendations?

[Elgarian Redux]

This morning brought Maazel/Pittsburgh and the Butt/Philharmonia (with their Antar included in the Brilliant 4-CD set).

I think I have a bit of a problem. I was so thrilled yesterday by the Morton Gould recording of Antar, and it's so fresh in my mind, that I know I won't be able to help comparing all the new ones with it. I listened to the Maazel today (great artwork by the way), and it was great - very fine - but all the time there was a little voice asking if it was as 'good' as the Gould. And that's no use. I need to take a break, so I can approach each new recording on its own terms.

[pjme]

I cannot find an english translation, but in his Monsieur Croche (or in la Revue blanche, March 1903), Debussy writes a glowing account of listening to Antar, as conducted by Camille Chevillard:

"a masterpiece, orchestral brillance..;, intoxicating rythms...;it is impossible to remain unmoved by the power of this music etc"
I'll try to find a complete text.

Nice!

[Elgarian Redux]

I couldn't resist having a preliminary listen to Yondani Butt and the LSO's version of Antar this evening, despite my intention to lie fallow for a bit. I'm listening to the 1st movement now, and it is so delicate I could weep for joy. So light, so airy - palm leaves swaying in a gentle desert breeze, the gazelle/princess flitting lightly from stone to stone in the ruins of Palmyra. Heck, I can almost feel the sand between my toes.

This is entirely adorable! I feel as if I'm listening to this music for the first time, even though I've been flogging at it for days. Many thanks to @Roasted Swan and @vandermolen (again) for their recommendations of this. This is quite fabulous. What a wonderful adventure this is turning out to be.

I'm further on now ... third movement, and it goes on and on being exquisite. Crikey, I utterly love this!

[KevinP]

My favourite Rimsky-K work is The Invisible City of Kitezh (already recommended on page 1).

I don't think the story is great--it's two Russian fairy tales jammed together--but it's a very satisfying musical experience.

[pjme]

I remember now that Colette wrote about Debussy (and Rimsky)... Here it is, from "Trait pour trait":

Every time I met Claude Debussy, it was in the sonorous warmth, the light fever of an exclusively musical atmosphere. A composer at the piano, a singer leaning on both elbows at the bare piano, a singer who did not leave her armchair to sing, and who exhaled the melody like a negligent smoke, head thrown back. If Louis de Serres left the keyboard, Pierre de Bréville replaced him, or Charles Bordes, or Déodat de Séverac. Vincent d'Indy amused himself shyly, improvising a waltz for barrel organ that he interrupted as if shame had burned him on the rack and pinion bench. Gabriel Fauré and André Messager, suddenly rivals, took his place to improvise four hands. The rhythm under their hands became daredevil, and any modulation became an ambush.

At such times music seemed to intoxicate Debussy. His goat-foot (faun) face, amber, his twisted locks where the eye sought the leaf and the vine, quivered with an inner delirium. In moments of intense fixity, his pupils met their gaze slightly, in the manner of hunting animals hypnotized by their own watch. It seems to me that he loved music as the crystal tulip loves the shock that draws from it a pure sound.
One Sunday evening we were brought together, when we had heard Antar performed for the first time in France, unless it was Scheherazade, and Debussy, obsessed, conquered, sang his symphonic memory within himself. A sort of swarm rumbling, or telegraph pole buzz, came from him, a groping and indecisive murmur. Then the memory became clearer, and his closed face suddenly opened.

"Wait! wait!" he said very loudly. Like this... mmmm... and like this: mmmm...

One of us grabbed it on the fly, stretched the recovered melodic shred.

"Yes, yes," cried Debussy. And during this time it was the cellos in the bass that said: mmm... And the timpani, good God, the timpani, nothing but a quiver that announced the explosion of the brass, and... and...

With his mouth closed, then meowing as he imitated the violins, he panted, torn apart by the timbres that battled in his memory. The poker, grasped, he used to hammer the rosewood of the piano. With his free hand, he made "zzzziii!" along the glass, then smacked his lips dryly, recalling the xylophone, and said "doug, doug" in a crystalline voice, to give us back the liquid drops of the "mustel" (celesta).

Standing, he used his voice, his arms, his feet, and two black locks of spiral hair danced on his forehead. His faun-like laughter did not respond to our laughter, but to an inner solicitation, and I engraved in myself the image of the great master of French music, in the process of inventing, before us, the jazz band.

[vandermolen]

And so to Ansermet's Antar, with his Swiss fellows.

It's rich, lush, and weighty where it needs to be. I imagine that anyone could listen to this and enjoy the music, as I did. But for me there is something missing. I find the orientalism is understated, so that where I expect to hear mysterious eastern promise, I hear merely a different kind of lusciousness. For me, that really matters. I want the music to transport me to the ruins of the ancient city of Palmyra; I want to meet the sexy magic princess who can change herself into a gazelle, but what I seem to hear is 'a beautiful princess', which isn't quite the same thing.

If you want the music - you'll get it, and very lovely too. If you want the dream, the mystique, the distant eastern skies, the magic in the air - well, I didn't get that. And that, for me, puts a question mark against Ansermet's interpretation.

No CDs in the post this morning. Heads will have to roll.

That's a great set!

[Florestan]

I remember now that Colette wrote about Debussy (and Rimsky)... Here it is, from "Trait pour trait":

Every time I met Claude Debussy, it was in the sonorous warmth, the light fever of an exclusively musical atmosphere. A composer at the piano, a singer leaning on both elbows at the bare piano, a singer who did not leave her armchair to sing, and who exhaled the melody like a negligent smoke, head thrown back. If Louis de Serres left the keyboard, Pierre de Bréville replaced him, or Charles Bordes, or Déodat de Séverac. Vincent d'Indy amused himself shyly, improvising a waltz for barrel organ that he interrupted as if shame had burned him on the rack and pinion bench. Gabriel Fauré and André Messager, suddenly rivals, took his place to improvise four hands. The rhythm under their hands became daredevil, and any modulation became an ambush.

At such times music seemed to intoxicate Debussy. His goat-foot (faun) face, amber, his twisted locks where the eye sought the leaf and the vine, quivered with an inner delirium. In moments of intense fixity, his pupils met their gaze slightly, in the manner of hunting animals hypnotized by their own watch. It seems to me that he loved music as the crystal tulip loves the shock that draws from it a pure sound.
One Sunday evening we were brought together, when we had heard Antar performed for the first time in France, unless it was Scheherazade, and Debussy, obsessed, conquered, sang his symphonic memory within himself. A sort of swarm rumbling, or telegraph pole buzz, came from him, a groping and indecisive murmur. Then the memory became clearer, and his closed face suddenly opened.

"Wait! wait!" he said very loudly. Like this... mmmm... and like this: mmmm...

One of us grabbed it on the fly, stretched the recovered melodic shred.

"Yes, yes," cried Debussy. And during this time it was the cellos in the bass that said: mmm... And the timpani, good God, the timpani, nothing but a quiver that announced the explosion of the brass, and... and...

With his mouth closed, then meowing as he imitated the violins, he panted, torn apart by the timbres that battled in his memory. The poker, grasped, he used to hammer the rosewood of the piano. With his free hand, he made "zzzziii!" along the glass, then smacked his lips dryly, recalling the xylophone, and said "doug, doug" in a crystalline voice, to give us back the liquid drops of the "mustel" (celesta).

Standing, he used his voice, his arms, his feet, and two black locks of spiral hair danced on his forehead. His faun-like laughter did not respond to our laughter, but to an inner solicitation, and I engraved in myself the image of the great master of French music, in the process of inventing, before us, the jazz band.

But, but, but... There's no xylophone and no celesta in either Sheherazade or Antar. 

[pjme]

But, but, but... There's no xylophone and no celesta in either Sheherazade or Antar. 

Cher ami, madame Colette informs you that that is not of your business! She was at the concert and definitely heard (and saw!) a celesta and a xylophone!!!



Sincèrement - avec mes salutations les plus distinguées,

Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette!

[Florestan]

Cher ami, madame Colette informs you that that is not of your business! She was at the concert and definitely heard (and saw!) a celesta and a xylophone!!!



Sincèrement - avec mes salutations les plus distinguées,

Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette!

Dear Madam, I am sure that you were that night at a concert where the xylophone and the celesta were played. I am equally sure, though, that neither Sheherazade nor Antar were in the program. That being said, I have to admit that while your memory is faulty, your physique is impeccable.

I remain, Madam, your most obedient servant.

[pjme]

Excellent,  votre politesse et perspicasité me plaisent beaucoup, cher monsieur!

Here is an old recording of Antar - indeed without celesta or xylophone....

[Roasted Swan]

In the midst of the Antar-itus that is sweeping the forum(!) I listened to the other 2 Rimsky Symphonies - they really are not nearly as appealing as Antar I reckon.  Rimsky does have a happy knack for writing colourfully and descriptively.  Which is probably why the orchestral excerpts from his operas are also as attractive as they.  By contrast Symphonies 1&3 seem rather routine - nothing 'bad' but not at the exaulted level of his other works.....

[Elgarian Redux]

In the midst of the Antar-itus that is sweeping the forum(!) I listened to the other 2 Rimsky Symphonies - they really are no nearly as appealing and Antar I reckon.  Rimsky does have a happy knack for writing colourfully and descriptively.  Which is probably why the orchestral excerpts from his operas are also as attractive as they.  By contrast Symphonies 1&3 seem rather routine - nothing 'bad' but not at the exaulted level of his other works.....

That's very much my opinion too. I have to be careful here though, because I do have a distinct weakness for music with a programme, and in the case of Antar I find the folk tale especially appealing, so that does influence my judgement.

Also I can see why R-K struggled with it when he thought (as he seems to have thought, initially), it was going to be a symphony. Basically he had just two tunes to play with, and so even though they are blisteringly good tunes, two tunes do not a symphony make, I suppose.

But for a piece of programmed music with only two characters, I suppose that in principle, two tunes might be all you need (especially since these are such gloriously appropriate tunes) to tell a rattling good story in music. And I believe Rimsky-K himself urged that we could call it whatever we liked, but not a symphony.

So yes, I too find it hard to be interested in Symphonies 1 and 3, but your assessment will be based on sounder musical principles than mine.

[Iota]

But, but, but... There's no xylophone and no celesta in either Sheherazade or Antar. 

Who cares when its couched in prose such as that!

[LKB]

Cher ami, madame Colette informs you that that is not of your business! She was at the concert and definitely heard (and saw!) a celesta and a xylophone!!!



Sincèrement - avec mes salutations les plus distinguées,

Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette!

Seeing that image puts me in mind of two activities, neither of which would normally involve the xylophone or Celeste. 

[Karl Henning]

In the midst of the Antar-itus that is sweeping the forum(!) I listened to the other 2 Rimsky Symphonies - they really are no nearly as appealing as Antar I reckon.  Rimsky does have a happy knack for writing colourfully and descriptively.  Which is probably why the orchestral excerpts from his operas are also as attractive as they.  By contrast Symphonies 1&3 seem rather routine - nothing 'bad' but not at the exaulted level of his other works.....

Back in the era when I became utterly besotted with Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, I had also checked out from the Rochester Public Library, a set of the B symphonies. I still vividly remember my whirlwind Prokofiev love. I didn't want ever to return it to the Library (though I was a good boy, and did) I remember nothing of R-K from that time. I should guess that I tried the First Symphony, that it failed to impress me, and that I did not even bother at the time with the others.

[Karl Henning]

Back in the era when I became utterly besotted with Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, I had also checked out from the Rochester Public Library, a set of the B symphonies. I still vividly remember my whirlwind Prokofiev love. I didn't want ever to return it to the Library (though I was a good boy, and did) I remember nothing of R-K from that time. I should guess that I tried the First Symphony, that it failed to impress me, and that I did not even bother at the time with the others.

Thanks to the R-K thread, this is a test:

Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
Symphony № 1 in e minor, Op. 1
Bergen Phil
Dmitri Kitaenko

I liked this much better than I expected. Is it one of my Top 50 symphonies? Probably not. Less inspired/engaging than Antar? I'll stipulate that without considering it any mark against the e minor Symphony. I found it entirely interesting throughout and particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale. The thought experiment I propose, if you like, @Roasted Swan and @Elgarian Redux is: listen to it as if it were Tchaikovsky's Symphony № 0.

[Karl Henning]

...  particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale.

Another Tchaikovsky connection: a saucy little fugato in the Polonaise.

[hopefullytrusting]

I've not listened to Rimsky, pretty much at all, but this disc has completely changed my mind:



First, its production value might be the highest I've come across, which means, sonically, this is flawless.

Second, you could tell that everyone was in on this project. It is the entirety of the rainbow of emotions - delicate, gentle to complete, utter bombasity!

I'm definitely going to get at least one more disc of Rimsky's music to test the waters a bit more, and I suspect after that - Rimsky will become a favorite of mine.

[Elgarian Redux]

I liked this much better than I expected. Is it one of my Top 50 symphonies? Probably not. Less inspired/engaging than Antar? I'll stipulate that without considering it any mark against the e minor Symphony. I found it entirely interesting throughout and particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale. The thought experiment I propose, if you like, @Roasted Swan and @Elgarian Redux is: listen to it as if it were Tchaikovsky's Symphony № 0.

Gosh this is interesting. You're on. I'll give it a go.
(I presume it's short on entwining magic princesses, though?)

[Roasted Swan]

I liked this much better than I expected. Is it one of my Top 50 symphonies? Probably not. Less inspired/engaging than Antar? I'll stipulate that without considering it any mark against the e minor Symphony. I found it entirely interesting throughout and particularly got a little charge over the Polonaise Finale. The thought experiment I propose, if you like, @Roasted Swan and @Elgarian Redux is: listen to it as if it were Tchaikovsky's Symphony № 0.

Nice thought but not one I'd run with!  Of course by date Rimsky 1 & Tchaik 1 are very close - although Rimsky revised his nearly 20 years after the original composition.  I know the Rimsky was considered by Balakirev to be one of the first proper "Russian" symphonies in terms of harmony/melodic shape etc but I hear more of that in the Tchaikovsky.

My introduction to Rimsky was not via Scheherzade but rather this recording;



There was a programme on the BBC's classical music channel (Radio 3) and they played this old LP.  I just loved all the bells and orthodox themes played in the heavy brass - something fervent and almost primal.  Very different from the "Mystic East" of Antar or Scheherzade.  To this day the Russian Easter Festival Overture is one of my Rimsky favourites bar none.

As a side note - this disc is a valuable reminder that Adrian Boult was much more than 'just' a stiff upper lip performer of British Music.....