Life, the Universe, and Everything

Started by AnotherSpin, July 14, 2025, 07:17:43 AM

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AnotherSpin

Quote from: Elgarian Redux on July 14, 2025, 07:02:17 AMI've been pondering this further, and I have to say that it is not consistent with my experience. Yes, there are habitual circles, of little or no significance except as the kind of sensation one gets from repeatedly scratching an itch. But my repeated listenings to great music aren't like that at all. It isn't a 'charming little habit of mind'. It's a positive act of the will and the imagination. Repeated listenings (I'm talking dozens, here) to, say, Wagner's Ring, are, each of them, great adventures. They seem to energise my lifeblood and enhance my perceptions. I don't recognise the identification you're making here, and indeed I don't believe we're talking about the same kind of experience.

I hesitate to complicate matters, especially here, of all places, but actions driven by personal will, by the so-called individual "I," are, alas, signs of conditioning rather than freedom. One might, of course, dress it up as a "choice," but if that choice is repeated and happens to be rather enjoyable, chances are it's already being steered by those subtle little vasanas.

It's quite clear we see this differently, and I assure you, I've absolutely no intention of trying to convert you :)

Spotted Horses

#1
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 14, 2025, 07:17:43 AMI hesitate to complicate matters, especially here, of all places, but actions driven by personal will, by the so-called individual "I," are, alas, signs of conditioning rather than freedom. One might, of course, dress it up as a "choice," but if that choice is repeated and happens to be rather enjoyable, chances are it's already being steered by those subtle little vasanas.

It's quite clear we see this differently, and I assure you, I've absolutely no intention of trying to convert you :)

These "vasanas" are tendencies, they are not deterministic. The brain is a dynamical system which is, even if its state at a given instant were known, is subject to thermal fluctuations, random perturbations from the environment and even quantum mechanical fluctuations.  There is an inherent unpredictability in its dynamics. Whether that is free will, I will will leave to the philosophers.
Formerly Scarpia (Scarps), Baron Scarpia, Ghost of Baron Scarpia, Varner, Ratliff, Parsifal, perhaps others.

Mandryka

Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 14, 2025, 04:46:07 AMLet's be honest, we all go round in circles, gently led (or dragged) by our vasanas, those charming little habits of the mind. As for Todd, it must be said: he had that rare knack for finding fresh interest in the same old material. And, rather impressively, for making others curious about it too. He was never one to stand still; even in the most familiar things, he somehow managed to hear something new. And, better yet, he actually shared it.

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Elgarian Redux

#3
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 14, 2025, 07:17:43 AM... actions driven by personal will, by the so-called individual "I," are, alas, signs of conditioning rather than freedom. ...

It's quite clear we see this differently, and I assure you, I've absolutely no intention of trying to convert you :)

Since the choices of these so-called individuals, 'I' and 'you', are driven by conditioning, the idea of one of them trying to convert the other does have a certain feeling of futility about it. As indeed do the musical choices they make. So truly, there does seem to be nothing left to say, nor any  'I' or 'you' left to say it.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Elgarian Redux on July 14, 2025, 11:12:05 AMSince the choices of these so-called individuals, 'I' and 'you', are driven by conditioning, the idea of one of them trying to convert the other does have a certain feeling of futility about it. As indeed do the musical choices they make. So truly, there does seem to be nothing left to say.
This so-called individual 'I,' through conditioning, apparently, feels for the so-called individual 'thee.'
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Elgarian Redux

Quote from: Karl Henning on July 14, 2025, 11:14:54 AMThis so-called individual 'I,' through conditioning, apparently, feels for the so-called individual 'thee.'

Oh shucks, Karl, my conditioned apparent self has always been a sucker for your particular conditioned responses.

Spotted Horses

If you feel like you have free will, isn't that enough?
Formerly Scarpia (Scarps), Baron Scarpia, Ghost of Baron Scarpia, Varner, Ratliff, Parsifal, perhaps others.

AnotherSpin

Quote from: Elgarian Redux on July 14, 2025, 11:12:05 AMSince the choices of these so-called individuals, 'I' and 'you', are driven by conditioning, the idea of one of them trying to convert the other does have a certain feeling of futility about it. As indeed do the musical choices they make. So truly, there does seem to be nothing left to say, nor any  'I' or 'you' left to say it.

Quite right, it's not as if we actually choose the music, any more than we compose it ourselves. Of course, we can always slip into suspension-of-disbelief mode and have a nice chat about this or that, as if we had a say in the matter. It's a persistent illusion, and not one limited to music ;).

Madiel

Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 14, 2025, 03:28:55 PMIf you feel like you have free will, isn't that enough?

Welcome to The Matrix.
Every single post on the forum is unnecessary. Including the ones that are interesting or useful.

steve ridgway

Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 14, 2025, 07:17:43 AMI hesitate to complicate matters, especially here, of all places, but actions driven by personal will, by the so-called individual "I," are, alas, signs of conditioning rather than freedom. One might, of course, dress it up as a "choice," but if that choice is repeated and happens to be rather enjoyable, chances are it's already being steered by those subtle little vasanas.

Always an interesting topic and, as the whole evolution of the universe results in ever more diversity and complexity, I'm wondering if the creation of apparently separate, unique individuals may be one of its "goals".

AnotherSpin

Quote from: steve ridgway on July 14, 2025, 10:53:36 PMAlways an interesting topic and, as the whole evolution of the universe results in ever more diversity and complexity, I'm wondering if the creation of apparently separate, unique individuals may be one of its "goals".

You can look at it differently. Everything happens only in the now. The past and the future don't actually exist. From this perspective, creation is happening endlessly, in the now.

And, though there are billions of bodies, awareness is one. Who are you?

Brian

Guys, do we need a mysticism thread in The Diner for these discussions? Or are we still solving the mystery of where Todd went?  ;D

DavidW

Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 14, 2025, 11:23:23 PMYou can look at it differently. Everything happens only in the now. The past and the future don't actually exist. From this perspective, creation is happening endlessly, in the now.

And, though there are billions of bodies, awareness is one. Who are you?

I'll add to that dwelling in the past leads to depression, and dwelling in the future leads to anxiety. Being present in the now leads to living. Not that we shouldn't think about the past or future, but it shouldn't overwhelm being here for the present moment.

prémont

Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 14, 2025, 11:23:23 PMYou can look at it differently. Everything happens only in the now. The past and the future don't actually exist. From this perspective, creation is happening endlessly, in the now.

And, though there are billions of bodies, awareness is one. Who are you?

Quote from: Brian on July 15, 2025, 04:28:25 AMGuys, do we need a mysticism thread in The Diner for these discussions? Or are we still solving the mystery of where Todd went?  ;D

If I got this right, it means that Todd doesn't exist now, and he will not come into existence before he is recreated.
Reality trumps our fantasy far beyond imagination.

DavidW

Quote from: prémont on July 15, 2025, 05:22:31 AMIf I got this right, it means that Todd doesn't exist now, and he will not come into existence before he is recreated.

Yes, we GMGers are too young to have object permanence! >:D

Elgarian Redux

Quote from: steve ridgway on July 14, 2025, 10:53:36 PMAlways an interesting topic and, as the whole evolution of the universe results in ever more diversity and complexity, I'm wondering if the creation of apparently separate, unique individuals may be one of its "goals".

Do you mean something like the Strong Anthropic Principle?

Brian


steve ridgway

Quote from: Elgarian Redux on July 15, 2025, 05:29:07 AMDo you mean something like the Strong Anthropic Principle?

No idea, I'm just thinking of the universe developing from an initial homogeneity.

AnotherSpin

Quote from: DavidW on July 15, 2025, 05:21:35 AMI'll add to that dwelling in the past leads to depression, and dwelling in the future leads to anxiety. Being present in the now leads to living. Not that we shouldn't think about the past or future, but it shouldn't overwhelm being here for the present moment.

Even more simply: we exist only now. But the mind endlessly flits between past and future, because mind cannot enter the present. This is perfectly obvious, and you don't have to be a mystic or a philosopher to know it without doubt. Any child knows it, until they've been conditioned otherwise :).

AnotherSpin

Quote from: prémont on July 15, 2025, 05:22:31 AMIf I got this right, it means that Todd doesn't exist now, and he will not come into existence before he is recreated.

I'm not sure that objects are created, they merely appear. Why? No one knows; there's nothing behind the curtain.