Herbert von Karajan

[uffeviking]

Happy 100th Birthday!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89313251

[MN Dave]

I don't think he reads this forum.

[uffeviking]

Oh yes he does! 

In an interview he promissed his Berlin musicians when he is UP THERE he will always keep an eye on them. If he can do that, he can also read anything about him!  0:)

[Harry]

Maestro, out of sight, but not out of my heart.
I hope you bring some order in the Choirsinging of the Angels. 0:)

[Haffner]

Maestro, out of sight, but not out of my heart.

Nor mine, the Bruckner Symphony dvd on its way Tuesday!

[uffeviking]

Don't overlook the additional goodies on that NPR site: The interview with Anne Sophie Mutter is worth listening to; and the video of the Tchaikovsky Scherzo is a jewel!

[Haffner]

Don't overlook the additional goodies on that NPR site: The interview with Anne Sophie Mutter is worth listening to; and the video of the Tchaikovsky Scherzo is a jewel!

I'm there.

[Chaszz]

Only first-rank eminent musician who wore the Nazi uniform.

[uffeviking]

Did you ever see him wearing that uniform?

Have you ever seen a photo of him wearing the uniform?

But I do thank you for inserting the persecution tactics of people who are completely ignorant of the situation.  Now that we have given the Wagner persecution some rest, I had a hunch Herbert von Karajan would be the next object of disparaging posts.

[Renfield]

Only first-rank eminent musician who wore the Nazi uniform.

Even taken figuratively, that would imply that Karl Böhm and Willem Mengelberg, to name two prominent examples, were in fact second-rank musicians.

And of course there remains the issue of showing how exactly the sole fact of having membership of the nazi party connects Karajan to the WWII atrocities, but not also the hundreds of thousands of other members of the German National Socialist Party as well.


Simplicity does not always imply validity: it can also serve to mask an ill-considered statement.

[Robert Dahm]

I don't think Karajan specifically had much to do with WWII atrocities, but they were certainly to his tremendous professional advantage...

[Renfield]

I don't think Karajan specifically had much to do with WWII atrocities, but they were certainly to his tremendous professional advantage...

That is a point to make, though "tremendously" I am not sure is entirely the right term.

There was certainly a lot of good (read: useful) promotion, the concerts in occupied France, etc.

But there was also the "tremendous" spat with Hitler demanding never to hear this worthless conductor again, when he did perform in front of him, and also the comparison with Böhm's fervent ulra-nationalism to make.

And more so the fact that his professional establishment as a recording musician (and his income) really took off in his post-war Philharmonia years, more than it did during the war itself under Furtwängler's shadow.

Still, as I said above, I won't dispute your general point. I just disliked the generalisation of "the Nazi uniform" in Chaszz's post.

[knight66]

I don't think Karajan specifically had much to do with WWII atrocities, but they were certainly to his tremendous professional advantage...

I am not sure that is correct. Karajan was for the most part kept in the backwaters during the war. His face did not really fit.

Hitler took against him due to an incident at a performance of Meistersingers where one of Hitler's favourite singers being drunk, lost his place in the music. Karajan was blamed because he was conducting from memory.

After the war, he was indeed provided with extraordinary opportunities. So were may people, changing times brought advantages to all kinds of people who were not part of the war machine.

He may well have joined the party in the hope of advancement, but it did little for him during war years and has been the prompting of such remarks as those above ever since.

As has been pointed out there were a number of other famous musicians who stayed put, Hotter and Schwarzkopf can be added. I think Furtwangler is yet to be mentioned. He remained as chief conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic throughout. He clearly had an uncomfortable relationship with the Nazis, but he stayed in place. We don't hear much about his possible opportunism. As I recall Detrich Fischer Dieskau was a conscripted member of the Wehrmacht. No one criticises him for 'doing his duty'.

We seem determined on this board to keep this issue alive, but only with one or two musicians as targets. There are some here who are not interested in setting these issues within the context of the time, rather to use the superficial splash of a damaging accusation. I do not accept that Karajan being a party member can be used as a code for...it follows he was an out and out Nazi and bought into their philosophy and see how he turned out  after the war as a typically power hungry megalomaniac, the Nazi party membership proves it all.

At least argue from subsequent detail of his behaviour and divorce it from this lazy shorthand of using the Party Card.

Mike

[Wanderer]

Mike, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Lazy assumptions and selective targeting is what keeps bringing this subject up time and again here.

[Renfield]

Mike, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Lazy assumptions and selective targeting is what keeps bringing this subject up time and again here.

Indeed.

Though, even speaking as a very dedicated fan of the maestro, I'll also note that it is important to keep a properly balanced perspective with respect to the other side of the argument, as well.

Karajan did make something of his years in nazi Germany; and he could have left like others, even less famous others at that time, and didn't. However, so did many others, and whether what he did then defined his later career is a complicated question to answer.

[Harry]

Only first-rank eminent musician who wore the Nazi uniform.

You know my friend, I get pretty sick from this statement of yours.....

[uffeviking]

When I started this subject, the only issue on my mind was remembering Herbert von Karajan's 100th birthday! 

Back in my mind I was a tad weary this other issue would take over the celebration. It did.   

A new idea is on my mind now: Blocking the subject! 

[Haffner]

When I started this subject, the only issue on my mind was remembering Herbert von Karajan's 100th birthday! 

Back in my mind I was a tad weary this other issue would take over the celebration. It did.   

A new idea is on my mind now: Blocking the subject! 

I am understanding more fully the futility of bringing up character flaws in otherwise great men and women. People with an axe to grind (either out of jealousy, cantankerousness, or manlingering boredom) will jump all over the defects in a person's character. It's a lesson I should have learned earlier in life.

[knight66]

Nevertheless.....you are still young. As you can see, there are older folk who are yet to grasp your learning; if they ever do.

Mike

[knight66]

I have the EMI vocal box and have been working my way through it. I have only so far listened to about 1/3rd of the 70 or so discs. The B Minor mass is a recording I knew, but it is still a surprise. Fresh, sprung rhythms, no wallowing at all. The chorus is excellent, marvelously trained and expressive.

On the other hand there is the Freni Aida. I cannot get to grips with this performance. A lot is to do with the balance between the voices and orchestra. The singers seem to be fighting to be heard and the orchestra sounds sumptuous and overripe.

There is lots that is good, great I guess. One recording I had not heard for many years was the Dresden Meistersingers; what a joy, it glows, it is beautifully paced and well sung. As a teenager I had thought it bland...who knows what I had been looking for. It has been the most pleasant surprise so far. Old friends have been returned to me such as the Falstaff and Salome. Some such as Rosenkavalier and Hansel and Gretel have long been my benchmark recordings, never superseded.

Mike