What's wrong with Rattle?

[Wanderer]

Spurred by some comments on the listening thread, I thought of starting a new topic on Rattle. Why is it that a man obviously deemed important enough to be considered worthy of conducting the Berlin Philharmonic has such a negative impact on so many people? It'd be interesting, I think, to share opinions and reviews here, especially useful, for one, to avoid substandard recordings or, inversely, to spot his excellent ones.

Personally, I feel he is often quite bland and with some annoying idiosyncrasies (e.g. erratic tempo fluctuations) and my general feeling is that he used to be better before he got involved with the BPO.

I have several of his recordings and I don't think they are all bad. His Mahler I've heard (Nos. 10/Cooke, 5, 8 ) I don't like (except maybe the Eighth, a little), neither his recent Debussy. His early Sibelius cycle with the Birmingham SO is OK but unexceptional and his recent Schubert Ninth has some interesting insights. His Szymanowski is quite good to my ears, as well as an early recording of Grainger's The Warriors. Magdalena Kožená's recording of Mozart arias (which he conducted) is exceptional (but I blame Kožená for that) and there's a Brahms Concerto No.1 with Andsnes I remember liking, although I haven't listened to it in quite a while.

So, what's your opinion on Rattle? Erratic rascal or misunderstood genius?
What should one get and what should be avoided among his recordings?

[eyeresist]

I only really know his BPO Mahler 10 (which I rate as the best available) and Philharmonia Sibelius 5 (which didn't do it for me). I think his style is very "cool", well played and very considered, but without the feeling of spontaneity and warmth that IMO makes a great performance.

[springrite]

I gave the first vote and it is negative. I respect him but hardly listen to him anymore, except for modern music (the reason for the respect). I first heard him when he as associate conductor under Giulini at LAPO (Tilson Thomas was the other one). I could never find logic in his interpretation. It just seems sporadic and jerky all the time.

[Renfield]

Rattle is a conductor of nuance, very analytical (though not as "intellectual" as Gielen, at least in Mahler); if you're looking for "espressivo" of the Bernstein sort with him, you won't really find it.

Rattle is no Karajan, nor Abbado, certainly not Barenboim: Rattle is Rattle. And for that alone, he has my respect. Also, he is - to my ears at least - an outstanding musician. Perhaps not in the spirit of roaring fortissimi, but outstanding nonetheless; subtle. [emphasis on that]

More-or-less the reason I voted "yes" in a nutshell.

But I reserve the right to elaborate further at a time when my head is somewhat clearer than right now.

[springrite]

I reserve the right to elaborate further at a time when my head is somewhat clearer than right now.

I personally enjoy your input just fine when you are allegedly not clearheaded. Let's have another bottle of Merlot and continue. 

[Wanderer]

But I reserve the right to elaborate further at a time when my head is somewhat clearer than right now.

Elaborate away at your earliest convenience! 

[Renfield]

I personally enjoy your input just fine when you are allegedly not clearheaded. Let's have another bottle of Merlot and continue. 

*laughs*

It's more my customary lack of sleep when I'm awake this early, that hampers my lucidity; me being a notorious night-owl and all. Otherwise, the Merlot might even do me some good.


Elaborating soon!

[Daedalus]

Personally, I like Rattle although I have only really heard his Mahler symphonies in detail.

I respected Rattle most for his comments when leaving the UK for his new post, when he criticised British culture and the attitude towards the arts. He sounds like a passionate individual who is devoted to producing the highest standard of art possible. From what I have read about his tenure in Berlin thus far, it seems that he took the position on at a difficult and transitional time and has attempted to engender massive change in a short space of time.

I have the Rattle Mahler symphonies box set and I particularly enjoy Mahler's early symphonies conducted by Rattle. To me, he seems to capture the different colours and textures of the early symphonies extremely well. I don't enjoy his interpretations of the middle symphonies so much (5,6,7) but 8 and Das Lied are very decent in my humble opinion.

I'm voting positively for Rattle - perhaps not 100% for technical reasons but for the passion that shines through in his work... plus what about that incredible and fantastical hair! 

D.

[MN Dave]

I am reserving judgement.

I own no Rattle recordings. I've been tempted to purchase his German Requiem because of all the accolades, but I haven't clicked the button yet. Maybe I never will since Klemperer is always "the one to get" for this work. And I haven't even purchased the Klemp yet.

[Daedalus]

It's what prevents him from hearing the difference between good conducting and his conducting.
And that's what's wrong with Rattle.

What, in particular, do you dislike about Rattle's conducting Sarkosian?

[MN Dave]

What does Simon Rattle represent?  Is there tradition behind him?

The Gramophone tradition?

[Sergeant Rock]

I voted no but in fact there are Rattle recordings I enjoy: his Sibelius, Shostakovich 4, the jazz album, the Bartok VC with Chung, the soundtrack to Henry V to name a few. I've read great things about his Porgy and Bess (along with a few scathing reviews too). But in general I find his interpretations just plain odd; odd tempo relationships, odd spotlighting; plus there is an emotional neutrality to much of his work...at least I don't get an emotional jolt from music that from other conductors never fails to move me (Mahler heads the list but includes Rattle's Janáček and Rachmaninoff too).

Sarge

[FideLeo]

The Gramophone tradition?

Aha! I see where his enemies are coming from....

[knight66]

I used to hear him reasonably often. I was only rarely engaged or excited. Some pieces that came off well in performance, then seemed comparitavely flat when taken to the studio. However, a number of his more recent live recordings do not seem to have pleased all that many people.

He is thoughtful and committed and a good communicator. He very often conducts even the most complex scores from memory. But I think he gets too caught up in letting you hear the detail in the score, to the extent that the performance is splayed open to look at and you hear it all, but it is too much like an academic exercise.

I positively disliked his Mozart, it again seemed to have little life to it. The Beethoven I heard was fleet, but had no depth of feeling. I enjoy much more his 20th cent. repertoire. My impression is that he was rather better about 20 years ago. I have had a few of his CDs through my hands, but not many of them have stuck.

Mike

[Papy Oli]

" Dear Simon,

Some fellow GMG'ers and myself have decided to organise a small collection as a token of our appreciation of your work and offer you a present, that we believe, will not only fill you with joy, but will also greatly contribute to the, some detractors would say improvement, I would say ever greatness, of your future recordings.

I know that you had one of those presents already, but i have been told it was somewhat playful of late, and had lead you erratically astray in your works.

We have no doubt whatsoever this newer fully working model will grant you the very few remaining CD shelf spaces not already honoured by the presence of your recordings in our beloved British music shops.

Attached herewith is a picture of your present :



Yours Truly,

Papy "





(I did reserve my judgment by the way     )

[Bonehelm]

A more logical question would be, What's right with Rattle?

[greg]

A more logical question would be, What's right with Rattle?

His involvement with contemporary music.

[Wanderer]

A more logical question would be, What's right with Rattle?

Equally logical, generally speaking, but rather less catchy.

You can change the title/subject of your answer to whatever you like to emphasize a point, by the way. 

[MISHUGINA]

I don't know what people liked in Rattle, his style of conducting is extremely eccentric; exaggerated highlighting of details and terribly lack attention on the "big picture" or architecture of the work. He made Berlin Philharmonic sounded like an amateur orchestra nowadays. I compared his conducting of Strauss' Ein Heldenleben with Mariss Jansson's one with Royal Concertgebouw and the difference was like Heaven and Hell. Both conductor's podium technique were obvious as well (at least Janssons doesn't look like an autistic kid suffering from spasms).

[vandermolen]

I have always been a bit suspicious of Rattle since my brother saw him arrive for a Roundhouse Prom in a sports jacket and change into a velvet T Shirt by the time of the concert.

However, I enjoy his Sibelius recordings, especially Symphony 3 and No 5. I was disappointed with the highly praised Walton Symphony 1 and Shostakovich Symphony 4.

He apparently has a very good relationship with his orchestras, who seem to enjoy playing for him.