Good riddance, Karajan

[Hector]

I remain, still, puzzled why it is found necessary to take Lebrecht seriously.

Clearly, anybody who knows anything about Karajan would have spotted the factual inacuracies straight away.

Lebrecht has set himself up as the super-musical critic/journalist in the same way he judges the tyro-conductors.

He is a very amusing and readable hypocrite working for London's only newspaper, a right-wing rag owned by the right-wing Associated Newspapers called 'The Evening Standard' although the first edition hits the streets before noon!

He's a journalist and journalists know nothing about anything except jounalism (lies).

[Renfield]

I remain, still, puzzled why it is found necessary to take Lebrecht seriously.

"Quoted for truth."

[Haffner]

I have a nagging (but possibly erroneous) feeling that that quote originated with Virgil Thomson . . . .

Probably, though I'm not familiar with the name.

[karlhenning]

Well, and it's a bon mot that wants saying, Andy, so there may be a variety of Ur-texts from different sources . . . .

[Haffner]

Well, and it's a bon mot that wants saying, Andy, so there may be a variety of Ur-texts from different sources . . . .

I love it: "Ur-texts". Makes me think of Mesopotamia.

[eyeresist]

Probably, though I'm not familiar with the name.

I believe Virgil Thomson was a composer who is largely remembered as a critic, ironically enough. He was one of the anti-Sibelius posse.

[Pierre]

Someone told me once that those that can't, teach (that's me!), and those that can't and can't teach, become critics.

And, oh dear, reading some postings here (not necessarily this thread) and on other messageboards makes me realise what those who can't do any of these things do... 

[eyeresist]

And, oh dear, reading some postings here (not necessarily this thread) and on other messageboards makes me realise what those who can't do any of these things do... 

Hey, the great thing about the interweb is, if we lower standards enough, no-one will be mediocre!

[Guido]

What a hateful, demented little piece of shit that man is.

Hahahaha!

I find some of his writing entertaining, even if I don't agree with all of it, and I also can't hate a man who promotes the music of Berthold Goldschmidt.

[DavidA]

I'm becoming a bit late to this I know that I didn't notice this when surfing the web. When I read Lebrecht's books I did notice several quite glaring factual errors about HvK. I wrote to him about them and he was gracious enough to acknowledge them. He said he would correct it in the next edition. However his books are full of careless research and sweeping statements about his hobbyhorses of whom one is his hatred of Karajan. One problem appears to be that HvK made so much money during his life. Of course someone who is at the top of their game is going to make a lot of money. But that should not influence our decision on him as a music maker. Nor should his opportunist membership of the Nazi party, loathsome though that was. In his legacy of recordings he needs to be looked on as a conductor.
One problem in Karajan's recordings is that he made so many that some of them were bound to have been duds. Towards the end of his life he was not so good as he was when he was younger but he still managed to produce some stunning recordings. If you look at is total legacy then you can see that for most composers there are recordings which may be considered classics.
I feel that Norman Lebrecht is just trying to climb on a hobbyhorse to get himself noticed. In this he is somewhat of an opportunist. Rather like Karajan, in fact.

[hafod]

Someone told me once that those that can't, teach (that's me!), and those that can't and can't teach, become critics.

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, administrate.
Those who can't administrate, take dictation.
Those who can't can't take dictation, answer the phone.
Those who can't can't answer the phone, wait on tables.
Those who can't can't wait on tables, carry dirty dishes to the kitchen.
Those who can't carry dirty dishes to the kitchen, wash dirty dishes.
Those who can't wash dirty dishes, buff the floor.
Those who can't buff the floor, haul out the garbage.
Those who can't haul out the garbage, write novels.
Those who can't write novels, write short stories.
Those who can't write short stories, write articles.
Those who can't write articles, edit.
Those who can't edit, write music columns.
Those who can't write music columns, write personals.
Those who can't write personals, write letters to the editor.
Those who can't write letters to the editor, spraypaint graffiti.
Those who can't spraypaint graffiti, write screenplays.
Those who can't write screenplays, write for TV.
Those who can't write for TV, read scripts for studios.
Those who can't read scripts for studios, act.
Those who can't act, take acting classes.
Those who can't take acting classes, sing.
Those who can't sing, sing Rock 'N' Roll.
Those who can't sing Rock 'N' Roll, sing it anyway and also play the guitar.
Those who can't sing or play Rock 'N' Roll guitar don't let that stop them.

I have no idea where this originates from.

[mc ukrneal]

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, administrate.
Those who can't administrate, take dictation.
Those who can't can't take dictation, answer the phone.
Those who can't can't answer the phone, wait on tables.
Those who can't can't wait on tables, carry dirty dishes to the kitchen.
Those who can't carry dirty dishes to the kitchen, wash dirty dishes.
Those who can't wash dirty dishes, buff the floor.
Those who can't buff the floor, haul out the garbage.
Those who can't haul out the garbage, write novels.
Those who can't write novels, write short stories.
Those who can't write short stories, write articles.
Those who can't write articles, edit.
Those who can't edit, write music columns.
Those who can't write music columns, write personals.
Those who can't write personals, write letters to the editor.
Those who can't write letters to the editor, spraypaint graffiti.
Those who can't spraypaint graffiti, write screenplays.
Those who can't write screenplays, write for TV.
Those who can't write for TV, read scripts for studios.
Those who can't read scripts for studios, act.
Those who can't act, take acting classes.
Those who can't take acting classes, sing.
Those who can't sing, sing Rock 'N' Roll.
Those who can't sing Rock 'N' Roll, sing it anyway and also play the guitar.
Those who can't sing or play Rock 'N' Roll guitar don't let that stop them.

I have no idea where this originates from.

There's a shorter version:
Those who can't do, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach gym.

[Karl Henning]

. . . Of course someone who is at the top of their game is going to make a lot of money.

Only if one is already a celebrity. A great many worthy musicians who are at the top of their game, but who have no Name, don't make any particular money.

[Coopmv]

A grad school buddy of mine, now a senior research scientist at Stanford, he collects music only by Karajan.  He thought Karajan was the best 30 years ago and his admiration for Karajan has only grown over the years to the point that he now only buys CD's by Karajan he does not already have.

[Superhorn]

    Norman Lebrecht is a joke .  His writings are so full of  glaring inaccuracies, blaytant fallacies, wildy exaggerated claims, 
ludicorus sweeping generalizations and  Christopher Hogwash  (my pun)  as to be good only for laughs .
His ridiculous animus toward karajan, a man who had  more talent in one cell of his body  than  Lebrecht has  in his whole
body , is  downright comical .

[Mirror Image]

Only if one is already a celebrity. A great many worthy musicians who are at the top of their game, but who have no Name, don't make any particular money.

Sad, but so true. I'm always in awe in the presence of a great musician.

[bigshot]

I recently picked up the complete orchestral EMI Karajan. Working my way through the 85 CDs, I'm struck by how different Karajan was at different points in his career, with different orchestras and with different labels. And it isn't so much a matter of tempi or phrasing. It's the overall sound. The later BPO records on DGG sound nothing like the earlier Philharmonia records on EMI.

When I was working on a transfer of Walter's 1935 Die Walkure, I pulled Karajan's Ring to match the pitch of my transfer to it. I lined up Walter's overture to Karajan's, but for the life of me, I couldn't make them match. Karajan had such a unique orchestral balance, the harmonies worked entirely differently. It was woven together in a way where overlapping notes blended into a different combination entirely. I pulled Barenboim's Ring and lined it up and it was a snap to correspond it to Walter.

I really like individuality in conductors. Karajan was certainly a one of a kind, just like Stokowski, Toscanini and Furtwangler. We may never see another conductor as unique as them.

[trung224]

I really like individuality in conductors. Karajan was certainly a one of a kind, just like Stokowski, Toscanini and Furtwangler. We may never see another conductor as unique as them.

Like you, I prefer original conductors. And I suspect that, the more individual the conductors are, the long time their legacy will survive. That why until now, Toscanini, Furtwängler, Stokowski, Klemperer, Szell, Karajan, Bernstein, Celibidache,Beecham,Mravinsky's CD still sold well. Meanwhile, reputation of the mainstream conductors like Solti, Ormandy,Böhm, Steinberg, Kubelik, Cluytens, even Bruno Walter, Monteux, Reiner has been faded, even though they are all renowned conductor in their lifetime. And this fate can be happenned with Haitink, Abbado, Chailly, Jansons, Muti.
   But I think Harnoncourt, Gergiev and Boulez are also highly individual conductors. The difference between them and the older generation is only repertoire.

[flyingdutchman]

His feelings towards Karajan are probably the first time I have agreed about anything with Lebrecht.

[Daverz]

   Like you, I prefer original conductors. And I suspect that, the more individual the conductors are, the long time their legacy will survive. That why until now, Toscanini, Furtwängler, Stokowski, Klemperer, Szell, Karajan, Bernstein, Celibidache,Beecham,Mravinsky's CD still sold well. Meanwhile, reputation of the mainstream conductors like Solti, Ormandy,Böhm, Steinberg, Kubelik, Cluytens, even Bruno Walter, Monteux, Reiner has been faded, even though they are all renowned conductor in their lifetime. And this fate can be happenned with Haitink, Abbado, Chailly, Jansons, Muti.
   But I think Harnoncourt, Gergiev and Boulez are also highly individual conductors. The difference between them and the older generation is only repertoire.

I think your list of "mainstream" conductors have given me as much joy as the "greats" you list.