Most impressive passages of counterpoint?

[ChamberNut]

Here we go again.  I guess it's been almost a year (wow, have I been here that long already?) since the last 71dB Summer Course. Now the new users can be introduced to a higher dimension of cluelessness (I call it super-cluelessness).

multi-dimensional cluelessness?     Sorry, I just had to, 71db. 

[prémont]

Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.

If I understand you correctly, you mean, that the changing colours of sound are taking place in a another dimension than the harmonic progress, making the music multidimensional (two-dimensional), but this is certainly not peculiar to Elgars counterpoint. Do you mean, that Elgar´s counterpoint harbours more dimensions than other composers counterpoint, and if you do, which dimensions are we talking about??

[jochanaan]

Are you people ready for the HORROR? 

Bring it on!

Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.

____________________________________________
*I strongly feel that in Elgar's music nothing happens without logical effects on other dimensions. Harmonic events affect on timbral things and vice versa.

Oh, I don't disagree at all.  I only disagree that these effects are peculiar to Elgar.  I find that Mahler, for example, is a great master of multitimbral, multidimensional counterpoint; so are Berlioz, Wagner, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartók and Lutosławski, among others.

[karlhenning]

Oh, I don't disagree at all.  I only disagree that these effects are peculiar to Elgar.

You and history both disagree with that odd view.  Plenty of counterpoint which operates in the "timbral dimension" in both Monteverdi and Bach, for instance

[drogulus]

     I don't know how multidimensional it is, but there's some pretty impressive counterpoint in Elgar, such as the Introduction and Allegro, the 4th movement of Symphony No. 2, and quite a bit of it in Part II of The Dream of Gerontius.

[BachQ]

     I don't know how multidimensional it is, but there's some pretty impressive counterpoint in Elgar, such as the Introduction and Allegro, the 4th movement of Symphony No. 2, and quite a bit of it in Part II of The Dream of Gerontius.

Yes. Yes.  Those are also in my TOP 20 Elgar counterpoint passages ...........

And make no mistake: they are HIGHLY multidimensional, particularly with respect to the vibrational field energy they generate .........

[12tone.]

Yes. Yes.  Those are also in my TOP 20 Elgar counterpoint passages ...........

It's almost like we should start an Elgar club  0:)

[Monsieur Croche]

Are you people ready for the HORROR? 

Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.

____________________________________________
*I strongly feel that in Elgar's music nothing happens without logical effects on other dimensions. Harmonic events affect on timbral things and vice versa.

That's it? Extension of the contrapuntal process to timbral dimensions? Why would anyone find this idea so horrifying? I'm still clueless here. 

Yes. Yes.  Those are also in my TOP 20 Elgar counterpoint passages ...........

Care to provide the full listing, Dm?

[Kullervo]

That's it? Extension of the contrapuntal process to timbral dimensions? Why would anyone find this idea so horrifying? I'm still clueless here. 

What 71dB is describing usually goes under the prosaic heading of orchestration. Nothing new or revelatory there.

Even so, it is interesting how composers seem to create their own logic through the clever combination of timbres. You listen to Sibelius or Debussy and say, "of course that clarinet would merge with the horn's sound, it makes perfect sense," even if there is nothing intrinsically logical about a tone color. Their handling of the timbral materials gives the illusion of inevitability.

[71 dB]

...there's some pretty impressive counterpoint in Elgar, such as the Introduction and Allegro, the 4th movement of Symphony No. 2, and quite a bit of it in Part II of The Dream of Gerontius.

That's right drogulus. Elgar's music is influenced heavily by such composers as Handel and Bach so it's no wonder it's very contrapuntal.

[Kullervo]

Yet another statement you can't musically prove. Show us a specific example in some scores and maybe we'll start treating you as a worthy poster.

Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.

[12tone.]

Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.

And they play Pomp and Circumstance at every graduation.  That proves Elgar makes you increasingly smarter. 

[71 dB]

Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.

Maybe it's my non-existing musical background but I find much more Händel in Elgar than say Chopin.

[op.110]

Beethoven C sharp minor String Quartet Op. 131 (1st movement)

[Lethevich]

Maybe it's my non-existing musical background but I find much more Händel in Elgar than say Chopin.

Yep, infinitely more. But Brahms was one of the greatest influences on Elgar (he listened to his symphonies very often), and I forget exact details, but Elgar was apparently friends with either Reger or Strauss, if the former, then some Bach-like counterpoint could've been introduced to him from that source.

[71 dB]

But Brahms was one of the greatest influences on Elgar (he listened to his symphonies very often), and I forget exact details, but Elgar was apparently friends with either Reger or Strauss, if the former, then some Bach-like counterpoint could've been introduced to him from that source.

True, there's much Brahms in Elgar. Richard Strauss was Elgar's very good friend and a major promoter of Elgar's music in Germany. To my understanding Elgar's main source of Bach/Händel influences came from reading scores in his father's music shop. Elgar heard a performance of Händel's Messiah when he was 12. That made him want to play violin and to become a composer.

[drogulus]

Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.

     I wonder why such dismissive remarks are made concerning Elgar? Are you trying to mirror 71dB's adulation negatively? I don't think such compensation is neccessary. Why does every obsevation concerning Elgar have to exhibit contempt for the composer and a superior attitude to his advocate? We already understand that such hero-worship is excessive, so why not discuss this composer like any other without the attitude?

     

Yep, infinitely more. But Brahms was one of the greatest influences on Elgar (he listened to his symphonies very often), and I forget exact details, but Elgar was apparently friends with either Reger or Strauss, if the former, then some Bach-like counterpoint could've been introduced to him from that source.

     Elgar's 2nd symphony sounds like it's influenced by the Brahms 3rd.

[Kullervo]

     I wonder why such dismissive remarks are made concerning Elgar? Are you trying to mirror 71dB's adulation negatively? I don't think such compensation is neccessary. Why does every obsevation concerning Elgar have to exhibit contempt for the composer and a superior attitude to his advocate? We already understand that such hero-worship is excessive, so why not discuss this composer like any other without the attitude?

Late in responding to this — I actually like Elgar quite a bit. I was just wondering why it seemed "so ridiculous" to meh/Karajan kid/asian girl/whatever that Elgar could be influenced by Handel.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Late in responding to this — I actually like Elgar quite a bit. I was just wondering why it seemed "so ridiculous" to meh/Karajan kid/asian girl/whatever that Elgar could be influenced by Handel.

On the contrary, I would expect considerable influence by Handel on Elgar, especially in the oratorios. This was the great age of monumental Victorian/Edwardian English oratorio performance, and Elgar would have absorbed that culture and attempted to inherit its mantel.

[MDL]

The Kyrie from Ligeti's Requiem. OK, it's impossible to follow all 20-odd vocal lines, and so the effect is more of a mass of sound, but I think I'm right in saying that Ligeti was quite scrupulous in constructing a web of genuine canons. He didn't do a Penderecki and fling a load of graphic notation at the page, saying, "Oh, sod it, that'll do. You get the general idea."