theatrical music (wrong music)

[Henk]

There are some composers who compose in a theatrical way. Their music tries to express not emotions or feelings, but previously events. That is wrong music imo, which Nietzsche also emphasized. Also what you get with this music is that the flow has gone or, to be more philosophical, (real) music makes you feel you are "in the world" (Sloterdijk). This wrong movement has begun with Wagner, and Wagner had his followers in Bruckner (partly theatrical), Kagel, Ligeti (who also composed "real" music), van der Aa (dutch composer) among others. I must confess this music is interesting, that's why I was impressed by Kagel some time ago, but it's not pure music anymore, music then is set on the secondary place.

There is this famous quote by somebody (who?): "music shouldn't express anything except itself". There's much truth in that. Theatrical music clearly tries to express other things then music alone.

[jochanaan]

I wonder what Nietzsche thought about R. Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra?

Seriously, I disagree with this premise.  Music "should do" what music does, that is, all kinds of things; and "absolute music" of the Nietzschean type is by no means the only great music.

Oh, and "music drama" began 2 1/2 centuries before Wagner.  So blame Monteverdi, not Herr Richard.

[Kullervo]

That is wrong music imo, which Nietzsche also emphasized.

Nietzsche said a lot of things that weren't true.

[eyeresist]

I agree with the OP's feelings. I have a strong aversion to programmatic music, and am no fan of R Strauss or Liszt's symphonic poems. I do like Ma Vlast, which IMO is more mood describing/scene setting (a la Beethoven's 6th) than specifically telling a story.

I am surprised to see Bruckner accused in this area, however! I have read that the finale of the 8th was inspired by the historic Three Emperors meeting, but as that movement includes a funeral march section, I don't think it would follow the historical action very closely.

[Pierre]

I agree with the OP's feelings. I have a strong aversion to programmatic music, and am no fan of R Strauss or Liszt's symphonic poems. I do like Ma Vlast, which IMO is more mood describing/scene setting (a la Beethoven's 6th) than specifically telling a story.

I am surprised to see Bruckner accused in this area, however! I have read that the finale of the 8th was inspired by the historic Three Emperors meeting, but as that movement includes a funeral march section, I don't think it would follow the historical action very closely.

Yup, "feelings" is the word! When it comes down to it, Henk's objection IMHO is merely one of personal taste - Jochanaan is right on the money about what music 'does'.

[Renfield]

Nietzsche said a lot of things that weren't true.

He actually didn't intend most things he said to be taken as being true, after all.


And I also disagree with you, Henk. Music expresses itself by default, in my view, and if someone does not appreciate the extra connotations with events, personal or historical, one can opt out of partaking of them, if you will.

In other words, you can ignore what the music might "mean", and it'll still be music; won't it?

[val]

Henk
There are some composers who compose in a theatrical way. Their music tries to express not emotions or feelings, but previously events.

I don't believe that music is able to describe events. Unless they are related to sounds, like the singing of the birds, the wind ...
If we listen a tone poem without knowing it's title we will never discover what event is being described.
That doesn't mean, however, that this kind of music is necessarily bad. As always, it is a matter of musical talent. Strauss Don Quixotte is a masterpiece, no matter how much it tries to describe the literary events.

[Henk]

I have no problem with the tone poems so far.

Listen to the difference, please. Music that express other things then music, and music that only expresses itself. The first isn't music anymore, doesn't give you the "feeling" of being in the world. If you recognize that you see that at first it might sound great, but that it's not great at all, whereas the latter is pure and great and does give you the "feeling" of being in the world.

[Henk]

He actually didn't intend most things he said to be taken as being true, after all.


And I also disagree with you, Henk. Music expresses itself by default, in my view, and if someone does not appreciate the extra connotations with events, personal or historical, one can opt out of partaking of them, if you will.

In other words, you can ignore what the music might "mean", and it'll still be music; won't it?

I disagree. I listened to the VC of Ligeti yesterday. You're listening to it from outside. It's like a painting that you see from a distance. There's no other way to approach this music, it's made this way. But music should be around you, should give you the feeling you are in the world. That's the difference. If you notice, you will probably agree.

[Henk]

I wonder what Nietzsche thought about R. Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra?

Music "should do" what music does, that is, all kinds of things

Isn't this a vague statement, Jochanaan. "Music should only express itself", is imo far more concrete and convincing. The argument is that music should not be subordinate to other things.

[Grazioso]

Isn't this a vague statement, Jochanaan. "Music should only express itself", is imo far more concrete and convincing. The argument is that music should not be subordinate to other things.

How would music become subordinate to other things if it were used to conjure images or impressions of them, or the feelings associated with them? The composer is the one calling the shots. That would be like saying a landscape painting is merely subordinate to the landscape at hand and therefore wrong, while only abstract painting is real, proper painting. What, then, of someone like Turner?

Their music tries to express not emotions or feelings, but previously events.

Do not the two go hand in hand? I haven't heard any music that's solely an emulation of extra-musical sounds without it also conjuring or eliciting associated emotions and feelings.

It's hard to believe that you would apparently consider La Mer, for example, to be "wrong" music. Does it refer to physical phenomena of the natural world? Surely. Is it also rich in musical substance, like melody, harmony, orchestration? Certainly.

The first isn't music anymore, doesn't give you the "feeling" of being in the world.

Could you elaborate on that? Frankly, I don't get. 

[Grazioso]

I agree with the OP's feelings. I have a strong aversion to programmatic music, and am no fan of R Strauss or Liszt's symphonic poems. I do like Ma Vlast, which IMO is more mood describing/scene setting (a la Beethoven's 6th) than specifically telling a story.

And yet what could be more theatrical--and at the same time more absolute--than LvB's 5th?

[Renfield]

I disagree. I listened to the VC of Ligeti yesterday. You're listening to it from outside. It's like a painting that you see from a distance. There's no other way to approach this music, it's made this way. But music should be around you, should give you the feeling you are in the world. That's the difference. If you notice, you will probably agree.

I think you're contradicting yourself; or at least seem to because of the terminology you're using.

If music can be made in a way exclusive to other ways of seeing it that depends on the music itself alone (i.e. on its particular, intrinsic qualities), how does that differ from pure music, and how can one confidently tell the difference?

In other words, based on your reasoning, how can you know a piece of music is not "theatrical"?


Could it possibly be that you simply do not connect to some pieces musically, and that is why they leave you cold?

[david johnson]

since none of us can read the minds of the composers we often prefer, it is impossible to really know the extent of what we're speaking about actually exists.

dj

[zamyrabyrd]

Give me the Symphonie Fantasique or Harold in Italie anytime.
I also find very helpful stumbling on programs about music that was supposed to be "abstract".
Claudio Arrau supplied a few about Liszt's pieces that work very well.

ZB

[Josquin des Prez]

The argument is that music should not be subordinate to other things.

The point is that music is NOT subordinate to other things. Programs are just a needless distraction and often a mere way to window dress music that is entirely devoid of true content or meaning. Liszt does this often, and the biggest proponents of programmatic music are usually the most shallow and superficial.

[Josquin des Prez]

Music "should do" what music does.

But that is precisely the premise. What music doesn't do is programs, and that is the root of the whole argument.

[Mark G. Simon]

There are some composers who compose in a theatrical way. Their music tries to express not emotions or feelings, but previously events. That is wrong music imo,

Henk,

The man in your avatar (Handel) spent his whole life composing theatrical music: 42 operas, 29 oratorios. If you think his music is "wrong" music, why do use him as your avatar?

As you know, many other composers have devoted their careers to theatrical music; in many cases they worked exclusively in theatrical forms. Do you think Mozart, Donizetti, Rossini, Verdi, Janacek and Berg wrote "wrong music"?

Unless you plan on disavowing opera altogether, you have to admit the validity of writing "in a theatrical way". One can debate the merits of writing concert music "in a theatrical way", but for an opera composer, anything not written in a theatrical way is most defintely "wrong music".

[jwinter]

I am surprised to see Bruckner accused in this area, however!

Yes, I can think of lots of ways to describe Bruckner's music, but programmatic or story-driven is not one of them.  I suppose you could argue that the way he generally structures a symphony, how he interweaves and returns to themes and uses the connections to build tension, is in some ways analagous to constructing a novel, with the rising and falling action of a plot and interconnecting themes and the like; but that's far from making the case that Bruckner's 4th, say, has an actual story or a specific physical event that it describes, like program music.  I don't see that at all.

I have to admit a strong personal preference for absolute music, as opposed to program music.  I admit that there's certain enjoyment to be had in following the action in, say, Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet, once it's been explained to you.  But that's just it -- someone needs to explain it to you in in order to get the full effect (you hear that theme there?  that's the Capulets, etc.)  The primary impression that sort of thing leaves me with is one of cleverness and ingenuity, which just doesn't move me the way other qualities do. 

For me it's also a matter of degree.  In Strauss, for example, I much prefer Death & Transfiguration to Don Quixote, even though I love Cervantes' novel and enjoy how well Strauss captures certain aspects of it.  D&T has a "plot", but it's a very simple one, it's more a charting of a single emotional journey.  I can follow the journey, feel those emotions, even if I don't know the exact referents; it's all there in the music itself.  To really enjoy DQ, you need to know the story and be able to see the connections, and the process of making those connections pulls me out of the immediate musical experience just enough to sour things a bit for me. 

All just my opinion, of course.  I'd suggest rethinking some of the terminology here as well.  I would definitely not go so far as to call program music "wrong", merely not so much to my taste.  Generally, I prefer blues to jazz -- that doesn't make Muddy Waters "right" and Miles Davis "wrong".  There is no one true path in something as aesthetically diverse as music.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

The point is that music is NOT subordinate to other things. Programs are just a needless distraction and often a mere way to window dress music that is entirely devoid of true content or meaning. Liszt does this often, and the biggest proponents of programmatic music are usually the most shallow and superficial.

Does it ever end with you? There's not a single thing that's "shallow" about Debussy's music, Prokofiev's music, Schumann's music, Mussorgsky's music, Britten's music, Berlioz's music... 

...these are just a few of the composers who've tried their hand at program music.