The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[Drasko]

Hey, Simon!

Which recording is this? Link please? 

This, I believe

Following a discussion on another thread, I am starting the day with this:

             

- specifically, the 8/12/52 Eroica

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtwängler-Dirige-Beethoven-Ludwig-van/dp/B000003O7G

[SimonGodders]

Hey, Simon!

Which recording is this? Link please? 

Hi George, this is the one I have:

http://www.amazon.com/Furtwangler-Legendary-Ludwig-van-Beethoven/dp/B000059M3J

One of the 'jewels' of my collection...

[George]

Thanks Simon!

Any other OOP stuff you wanna brag about? 

[SimonGodders]

 
Cheeky!

Probably still available from the French outlets, Amazon, FNAC etc.

[rubio]

I ordered it from here - the only place I found it. I think you have to act quick. It has got glowing recommendations from several persons.

http://www.alapage.com/-/Fiche/MusiqueClassique/512156/wilhelm-furtwangler-legendaires-concerts-d-apres-guerre-symphonie-n-1-symphonies-n-3-5-6-et-9-johanne-brahms-ludwig-van-beethoven-johannes-brahms-orchestre-romantique.htm?fulltext=beethoven%20tahra%20furtwangler&id=123491177193533&donnee_appel=ALAPAGE

[Bogey]

For what they are worth, here are some reference links for recordings:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030608095829/www.fornax.hu/wfsh/disco.html

This next one supposedly has updates(?) and seems to be "home-made", if you will:

http://my.dreamwiz.com/fischer/Furtwangler/furtwangler-discography.htm

[Que]

I ordered it from here - the only place I found it. I think you have to act quick. It has got glowing recommendations from several persons.

I believe that set has the same recordings as Simon's - which is in a book format.
Neatly assembles all the major post-war recordings, including the '54 Luzern 9th - in either format strongly recommended.

Q

P.S. I'm glad it's still available for those interested - link to Amazon.fr

[SimonGodders]

I believe that set has the same recordings as Simon's - which is in a book format.
Neatly assembles all the major post-war recordings, including the '54 Luzern 9th - in either format strongly recommended.

Q

Just to clarify, I have the standard 4CD box set, not the 'book' type set. Quite glad at this though as I'ld doubt it would fit into my CD storage! It is however an excellent set.

[Que]

I listened to Bruckner's Symphony 9 from the below set today (from 1944). It's a really intense and driven performance. Still I prefer Giulini in this symphony; especially due to the inferior sound of the Furtwangler account. I also think Furtwangler's war-time Bruckner 5 (on Opus Kura) is preferable both performance-wise and sound-wise.

I think it's primarily the sound that is the problem with the 9th - I love the performance.
The sound quality should be comparable with that of the 5th (same recording technique, only two years later).
If Opus Kura comes up with a transfer of the 9th, I expect the same improvement in sound as with the 5th. The 5th sounded on DG as dim and dull as the 9th! 
The French Furtwängler Society already issued a transfer of the 9th from Melodiya LP's - like Opus Kura did with the 5th - but I haven't heard it (you first have to join! ). Maybe Melodiya comes up with a new transfer too!

Anyway, I agree the sound on DG leaves much to be desired.

Q

Yeah, it would really be nice if this performance would come with the same sound as the Bruckner 5th. Have you heard some of the Furtwangler war-time Beethoven on Opus Kura? Have they received the same degree of improvement from the DG/Music&Arts recordings?

I have of the wartime recordings this one on Opus Kura.
Because I avoided duplication, I can't compare with other labels.
I can however confirm that the sound quality is comparable with (as good as) the Bruckner 5th. The LvB 4th having to my surprise - being a broadcast recording - even better sound than the 7th. BTW Melodiya reissued many of the wartime recordings - see the start of this thread.



Q

[marvinbrown]

On the other hand I prefer Beethoven's 6th with the VPO in 1952, the 9th in Bayreuth (1951) and regarding operas, the Ring in the Scala (1950) and Tristan und Isolde with Flagstad and Suthaus with the Philharmonia.

   Val well said,  that Tristan und Isolde recording on EMI Great Recordings of the Century is to die for and deserves a second mention.  Have not heard the Ring in the Scala (1950) although I have the Ring from RAI 1953 which is really enjoyable despite the less than stellar sound.  Furwangler is a brillaint Wagner conductor. Somebody on the old GMG forum pointed out that out of FURTWANGLER you can extract FUR WAGNER (for Wagner.....interesting)

    marvin   

[Novi]

I believe that set has the same recordings as Simon's - which is in a book format.
Neatly assembles all the major post-war recordings, including the '54 Luzern 9th - in either format strongly recommended.

Q

P.S. I'm glad it's still available for those interested - link to Amazon.fr

Just a heads up for those interested ...

This set is now available at amazon.fr for under 20 euros (it used to be about 30).

Que's link will get you there .

[chrisg]

LvB 5th - '47 BPO (Tahra)  It's similar to the wartime recording, but better recorded.  Very different is the '54 5th with the BPO (Tahra). Overall timings are slower, but the tempos within movements are much more varied, which is one of the great things about Furtwangler in general.  Powerful, grand, and great sound.

LvB 6th - '52 VPO (EMI - studio)  One of my desert island discs.  This has to be the slowest 1st movement ever (11:50 without repeat), but it works beautifully.  The finale is still on the quick side, but this soars, where the earlier live versions sound too hectic.  A Pastoral to just get lost in.

LvB 9th - If you can handle the lousy sound, the '42 performance is pretty amazing - incredibly intense, almost angry, as if WF were throwing it at the audience.  Like the '54 5th, the '54 Lucerne 9th has power, grandeur, and sounds great on Tahra.

LvB - Coriolan Overture (BPO '43 on M&A)  Is there a slower performance on record?  Furtwangler could drive hard with the best, but he didn't need speed to rattle the rafters.  One of the best examples ever of the difference a great conductor can make.

Brahms Sym #1 - A tossup between BPO '52 (DG) and the '51 (NDR Hamburg - in the M&A set.)  All of WF's Brahms is great.  Makes me wonder how conductors over the years have forgotten how to do Brahms.

Schubert Sym #9 - BPO '42 (DG)  The sound is rough going, but this live version blows away the famous studio recording.  By any reasonable standard, the studio is an excellent performance, but it sounds far too straight compared to the live one - not Furtwangler'ish enough. 

Schumann Sym #4

I think I'll make it Furtwangler Brahms and Schubert for the next couple days commute.

Cheers - Chris

[Sean]

My experience of his recordings is more limited but you don't have to listen for long to understand this is indeed one of the most phenomenal musicians there's ever been. I recently had Die Harmonie der Welt symphony, after the opera, by Hindemith (the composer he rather unfortunately championed over other better ones) and 'such visionary splendours' as the Grove article says is certainly what he provides.

He finds colour, meaning and a beautiful iridescent passion in passages that would never have been revealed: an inward and powerfully artistic world, shared indeed by many conductors of the period, that's simply beyond reproduction in the present postmodern climate of surface experience.

[dirkronk]

Beethoven, Symphonies 1 [w.Stuttgart Radio Orchestra. Rec. 3/30/54], 2 [w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 10/3/48], 3 [w.Berlin Philharmonic. Rec. 12/8/52], 4 [w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 9/4/53], 5, 6 [both w.Berlin Philharmonic. Rec. 5/23/54], 7, 8 [both w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 8/30/54] & 9 [w.Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elsa Cavelti, Ernst Haefliger, Otto Edelmann, Lucerne Festival Chorus & Philharmonia Orchestra. Rec. 8/22/54]. (All cond. Furtwangler) 
Add to cart | Price: $ 19.95 | 5 in set. | Country: GERMANY | D/A code: Mono | Code: ARPCD 0214 | BRO Code: 133349 | Label: ARCHIPEL
Genre: Symphonies 

FWIW, this showed up a couple of days ago at Berkshire. You'll note that it has the Eroica that I and others recommended earlier in this thread, though I have NOT heard this transfer (I have it on Tahra). Also, while I think I recognize some of the other performances (the description of the 9th looks like the famous '54 Lucerne version, same soloists anyway...and I'm pretty sure I have the 5th & 6th), I'm not sure about them all and I'm not at home to go through my collection to check and listen. Thus I cannot give a blanket recommendation to this set. Still, look at the price.

So...does anyone already have this particular set...and would you please comment on the quality of the other performances and of all the transfers? If they're decent at all, this might be a nice set to augment the wartime performances.
Just a thought.

Dirk

[chrisg]

Hello Dirk,

Besides the Eroica you mention, the Lucerne 9th is the same recording date as Tahra Furt 1003, and the 5th and 6th are the same dates as Tahra Furt 1009.  The sound quality is outstanding (considering the sources) on all of them.  The 4th appears in another Tahra set that I don't have.

I can't comment on the other performances, but I wonder if "Archipel" is legit.  There are lots of pirates out there (often available from Berkshire), but I'm careful about buying from labels that actually do the restoration work.

Can anyone comment on Archipel?

cg

[George]

I can't comment on the other performances, but I wonder if "Archipel" is legit.  There are lots of pirates out there (often available from Berkshire), but I'm careful about buying from labels that actually do the restoration work.

Can anyone comment on Archipel?

cg

They are a pirate label. I have one of their CD's (along with an original recording) and it appears that they added in more noise (tape hiss) and reduced some of the fullness in the piano sound in their "digital restoration." I would only use them as a last resort. 

[Que]

I already had Furtwängler's "En Saga" by Sibelius on the Italian pirate label "Grammofono" and hoped for a better transfer on Melodiya.
This Melodiya issue is an answer to all my wishes. Of course it's better than the Italian crap, but there's more.
For Wartime recordings I preferred to date the transfers Opus Kura made of Melodiya LP's.

But this is even better: very good transfers, not overtly filtered and I hear everything: tape hiss, audience sounds (coughing) and ALL of what matters - the music.
I don't know what the heck the Russians did when they "returned" the wartime tapes to Germany, but this is sound quality - clarity, detail and naturalness - people at Deutsche Grammophon can only dream of!

Enough of that - the music. Well, I already knew "En Saga" and this performance is one of the few most stunning, breathtaking and wildest pieces of music I've ever heard. I mean: you'd wish somebody had tied Furtwängler onto a chair until he had recorded every note of Sibelius written for orchestra.

The violin concerto affirms Furtwängler's feeling for Sibelius. I admire Kulenkampff and I was pleasantly surprised by this first tape recording I've heard by him - I only knew 78 rpm's. He has a much fuller tone on this, and you hear him really digging into the strings, producing a very "grounded" sound. Old fashioned playing: lots of vibrato and portamenti. Wonderful performance.

Q

[Michel]

So which are the transfers we want from the war?

[Drasko]

7, 8 [both w.Vienna Philharmonic. Rec. 8/30/54]........

...and would you please comment on the quality of the other performances and of all the transfers? If they're decent at all, this might be a nice set to augment the wartime performances.
Just a thought.

Dirk

7th and 8th are from Furtwangler's last Salzburg concert. They were/are available on Orfeo, both on single disc or with added Grosse Fugue (which was the remainder of the concert) in Orfeo's Furtwangler in Salzburg Box. I haven't listened to them recently but IIRC they are very good but I do prefer other 7ths to this one which sounds bit tired, I seem to recall liking 8th more and again it ain't light and airy affair but surely beats shoddy Stockholm account on EMI and we aren't really spoiled for choices when it comes to Furtwangler's 8th (I'm aware of only one more, in one of those DG boxes, which I haven't heard). What is exceptional on Orfeo is the sound quality which is one of the best ever given to Furtwangler (somewhat ironic). So if Archipel directly nicked Orfeo transfers without tampering it should be ok.

[SimonGodders]

I already had Furtwängler's "En Saga" by Sibelius on the Italian pirate label "Grammofono" and hoped for a better transfer on Melodiya.
This Melodiya issue is an answer to all my wishes. Of course it's better than the Italian crap, but there's more.
For Wartime recordings I preferred to date the transfers Opus Kura made of Melodiya LP's.

But this is even better: very good transfers, not overtly filtered and I hear everything: tape hiss, audience sounds (coughing) and ALL of what matters - the music.
I don't know what the heck the Russians did when they "returned" the wartime tapes to Germany, but this is sound quality - clarity, detail and naturalness - people at Deutsche Grammophon can only dream of!

Enough of that - the music. Well, I already knew "En Saga" and this performance is one of the few most stunning, breathtaking and wildest pieces of music I've ever heard. I mean: you'd wish somebody had tied Furtwängler onto a chair until he had recorded every note of Sibelius written for orchestra.

The violin concerto affirms Furtwängler's feeling for Sibelius. I admire Kulenkampff and I was pleasantly surprised by this first tape recording I've heard by him - I only knew 78 rpm's. He has a much fuller tone on this, and you hear him really digging into the strings, producing a very "grounded" sound. Old fashioned playing: lots of vibrato and portamenti. Wonderful performance.

Q

Thanks for taking the plunge! And for your comments, will have to get hold of some now...

Cheers Que