So many Hungarian conductors!

[Brian]

Is there something about the nation of Hungary that just produces great conductors by the truckload? There are not quite 15 million Hungarian people in the world (that's about equal to the current population of Pennsylvania), but among those ranks have stood such figures as -

Eugene Ormandy
Fritz Reiner
George Szell
Georg Solti
Antal Doráti
... and more, like István Kertész, Iván Fischer, Christoph von Dohnányi (half-German), and Ferenc Fricsay.

That's an eye-popping list! Is there something in the water over there?

[samuel]

well... if you consider that haydn, mozart, schubert, bruckner, mahler, schoenberg, berg, and of course dittersdorf were all austrian and that hungary used to be part of austria... maybe all that musical talent wore off on hungary?

[mahler10th]

Goulash puts fire in the Hungarian belly.  It is a VERY impressive list of conductors, isn't it?  One is hard pressed to choose a favourite from all those (and more) magnificently skilled baton wavers.

[Dundonnell]

Just to add one more to your list-Arthur Nikisch was born in Hungary to a Hungarian mother and Moravian father.

Nikisch conducted the Boston Symphony Orchestra from 1889 to 1893 and the Leipzig Gewandhaus and Berlin Philharmonic simultaneously from 1895 until his death in 1922. He was regarded as the leading conductor of his day and was hugely admired by many(though not all!). The famous British conductor Sir Adrian Boult was a pupil of Nikisch.

[M forever]

Christoph von Dohnányi (half-German)

Christoph von D is "fully" German, born, raised and educated. His grandfather was Hungarian though. Hence the name.

well... if you consider that haydn, mozart, schubert, bruckner, mahler, schoenberg, berg, and of course dittersdorf were all austrian and that hungary used to be part of austria... maybe all that musical talent wore off on hungary?

Hungary was not a part of Austria, and not all the people mentioned there were Austrians. Musical talent is not something specific to certain ethnic groups anyway, and it does not "rub" off on their neighbors. The blooming of musical talents in a culture which allows these talents to unfold fully is a cultural context.

Among the many nations which were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Hungary was the second most important one, and Budapest was the second most important city of that huge empire, and one in which there were many opportunities for musicians to receive high level training and make a career, "go places", as the cultural "scene" and the importance placed on music was similar to and also, obviously, connected to Austria and through that, to the rest of the German-speaking world. The apparently very high level of musical training they established during that time has obviously lasted for a while after the disintegration of the A-H Empire and is still evident today.

[samuel]

yeah my bad i meant the austro-hungarian empire and my comment was not intended to be serious. were they not all austrian by birth?

[Lilas Pastia]

I don't think so. The Emperor of Austria was also King of Hungary. So I would imagine they were Hungarians, maybe with some kind of special status in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

[val]

Brian
Is there something about the nation of Hungary that just produces great conductors by the truckload? There are not quite 15 million Hungarian people in the world (that's about equal to the current population of Pennsylvania), but among those ranks have stood such figures as -

Eugene Ormandy
Fritz Reiner
George Szell
Georg Solti
Antal Doráti
... and more, like István Kertész, Iván Fischer, Christoph von Dohnányi (half-German), and Ferenc Fricsay.

We must not forget Janos Ferencsik, a great interpreter of Bartok - the best versions of the "Wooden Prince", Cantata Profana, "Bluebeard Castle" ...

[some guy]

Peter Eötvös

[M forever]

I don't think so. The Emperor of Austria was also King of Hungary. So I would imagine they were Hungarians, maybe with some kind of special status in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

For two centuries, until 1867, Hungary was just one of the many territories that were subjects of the Habsburg monarchy, but there were a lot of tensions and as a consequence of the war with Prussia in 1866 which Austria lost, they had to make concessions in order to keep the Empire from falling apart, so officially, it became a double monarchy with one sovereign who was both Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary. Technically, they were two separate states, more or less independent of each other but united by having the same ruler, but in reality, it wasn't quite like that. The consequence of the restructuring of the Empire though was that now Hungary had its own government and it was the second most important part of the multinational A-H Empire. Hungary itself also contained several ethnic groups, not just Hungarians.

were they not all austrian by birth?

No. Mozart was born in Salzburg which during his lifetime was not part of Austria. Mahler was born in Bohemia which was a part of the Austrian Empire, but not part of Austria itself. Bohemia and Moravia are now the Czech Republic. Back then, both Germans and Czechs lived there. So Mahler was a German from Bohemia and subject of the Austrian crown. Dvořák was a Czech from Bohemia and subject of the same state. Things were a little more complicated back then. People also often make the mistake of confusing modern political realities with what it was like back then.

[Dundonnell]

Excellent post

[M forever]

Test: Richard Strauss was born in 1864 in Munich. What was his nationality, and what state was he a citizen of?

[Dundonnell]

The Kingdom of Bavaria.

[Superhorn]

    Also,  there  are  two  fine  Hungarian  conductors  today  who  happen
to  be  brothers :  Adam  and  Ivan  Fischer.  Ivan  has  had  considerable   acclaim  with  his  Budapest  Festival  orchestra,  and  currently  has  a   post,
not  music  director  with  the  Washington  National  Symphony.
   Brother  Adam  has  recorded  the  complete  Haydn  symphonies  for  Nimbus
records  with  an  orchestra  made  up of  Hungarians  and  members  of  the  Vienna  Philharmonic.  He  has  conducted  at  the  Met  and  other  top  opera  companies. 
   It  may  be  hard  to  find  now,  but  Adam  made  a  recording  of  the  once  popular  opera "The  Queen  of  Sheba",  by  Karl  Goldmark,  best  known  for  the
"Rustic Wedding  Symphony".  It  was on  Hungaroton,  and  is  worth  a  listen.

[M forever]

The Kingdom of Bavaria.

What's the answer to the first part of the question?

[Dundonnell]

Well I would have to say that his 'nationality' was Bavarian if by the word we understand the relationship between an individual and the state in which he was born but, obviously, he spoke German and from 1871 was equally a citizen of the German Empire(of which the Kingdom of Bavaria was from then a component part).

On the other hand, we could call Strauss at birth a German but a Bavarian subject.

Your point?

[M forever]

Well I would have to say that his 'nationality' was Bavarian if by the word we understand the relationship between an individual and the state in which he was born but, obviously, he spoke German and from 1871 was equally a citizen of the German Empire(of which the Kingdom of Bavaria was from then a component part).

On the other hand, we could call Strauss at birth a German but a Bavarian subject.

Your point?

I don't have any specific points, but you get three points for all correct answers. It is interesting to note though that while Bavaria was a part of the German Empire from 1871 on, it retained a special status not granted any other formlerly (more or less) independent German state because it was the second most powerful state, after Prussia. One of these exceptions was that they kept their own army which was part of the Imperial Army, but pretty much made its own rules. One of these was that Austrian citizens could join the Bavarian army (but not, to my knowledge, any other part of the Imperial Army). Which is what Hitler did in 1914.

[mahler10th]

    Also,  there  are  two  fine  Hungarian  conductors  today  who  happen
to  be  brothers :  Adam  and  Ivan  Fischer.  Ivan  has  had  considerable   acclaim  with  his  Budapest  Festival  orchestra,  and  currently  has  a   post,
not  music  director  with  the  Washington  National  Symphony.
   Brother  Adam  has  recorded  the  complete  Haydn  symphonies  for  Nimbus
records  with  an  orchestra  made  up of  Hungarians  and  members  of  the  Vienna  Philharmonic.  He  has  conducted  at  the  Met  and  other  top  opera  companies. 
   It  may  be  hard  to  find  now,  but  Adam  made  a  recording  of  the  once  popular  opera "The  Queen  of  Sheba",  by  Karl  Goldmark,  best  known  for  the
"Rustic Wedding  Symphony".  It  was on  Hungaroton,  and  is  worth  a  listen.

Very interesting, but spoiled by the text formatting which is...well...annoying. 

[Josquin des Prez]

Well I would have to say that his 'nationality' was Bavarian if by the word we understand the relationship between an individual and the state in which he was born but, obviously, he spoke German and from 1871 was equally a citizen of the German Empire(of which the Kingdom of Bavaria was from then a component part).

By the same token we could consider Liszt to be Austrian, or French.

[Dundonnell]

I don't have any specific points, but you get three points for all correct answers. It is interesting to note though that while Bavaria was a part of the German Empire from 1871 on, it retained a special status not granted any other formlerly (more or less) independent German state because it was the second most powerful state, after Prussia. One of these exceptions was that they kept their own army which was part of the Imperial Army, but pretty much made its own rules. One of these was that Austrian citizens could join the Bavarian army (but not, to my knowledge, any other part of the Imperial Army). Which is what Hitler did in 1914.

Why thank you, sir

I knew my History degree would come in useful one day