Eric's thread on Pelléas et Mélisande

[Homo Aestheticus]

Why unbelievable?  There's less demand for it, I expect.

And that is truly a great pity.

Well, were you going to buy a ticket?

Gosh, as many as I could !  Back in February 2005 when it was last produced I was able to buy tickets for all 5 performances. There were also front row seats available at every one, except for the Saturday matinee.

[Homo Aestheticus]

For those wondering where this came from, Karl and I are referring to this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11019.0.html

[bricon]

Considering that it is one of the least expensive to put on makes this doubly sad.

Well, you do get what you pay for.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Well, you do get what you pay for.

O.k. Bricon sarcasm aside,    ...  aren't you a fan of  P&M  ?

[Wendell_E]

Why unbelievable?  There's less demand for it, I expect.

Well, were you going to buy a ticket?  Opera is for audiences.

As I recall, Eric's mentioned that the last time they revived the opera, he went to all four performances.

In any case, as I mention in the Met 2009-10 thread, the opera will be revived in 2010-11, just 5 years and 10 months after the last Met performances.

[Mandryka]

Hi

I know this isn't really a recordings thread but I wanted to say that I've just discovered this DVD and I love it.

It's conducted by Gardiner,   with Colette Alliot-Lugaz, François Le Roux, José van Dam, and Roger Soyer.

It's a strange production -- much of the action seems to take place as fantasies in the heads of the singers.

Whetever you might think of that as concept, one thing it does do is make the singers act. And I found the result riveting.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Well, about 2 months ago I sent both DavidW and Thomas (Wilhelm Richard) a recording of  Pelleas et Melisande  as a gift and am somewhat disappointed that they haven't shared their thoughts/feelings on it...



C'mon guys what do you think so far of Debussy's great opera ??

[Anne]

Hi

I know this isn't really a recordings thread but I wanted to say that I've just discovered this DVD and I love it.

It's conducted by Gardiner,   with Colette Alliot-Lugaz, François Le Roux, José van Dam, and Roger Soyer.

It's a strange production -- much of the action seems to take place as fantasies in the heads of the singers.

Whetever you might think of that as concept, one thing it does do is make the singers act. And I found the result riveting.

Was this the first time you found yourself liking this opera?  The idea of fantasies might be a big help to me.

[Wilhelm Richard]

Well, about 2 months ago I sent both DavidW and Thomas (Wilhelm Richard) a recording of  Pelleas et Melisande  as a gift and am somewhat disappointed that they haven't shared their thoughts/feelings on it...



C'mon guys what do you think so far of Debussy's great opera ??

Many apologies!  Though I made sure to let you know my initial thoughts through a PM, it slipped my mind to return to this thread.  If nothing else, I wanted to acknowledge publicly that I know very few who are so committed to informing/enlightening others of things musical that they are willing to be so generous, and for that I thank you again.
Pelléas et Mélisande contains some of the most beautiful and calming music I have ever heard.  The perpetual lushness of the strings is probably what I enjoy the most about it (though I am sure Herr Karajan and that ol' Berlin Philharmonic had a little something to do with that ) The entire work flows very naturally, from a form perspective and in the way that the voices and the orchestra interact.
Now that I have heard it, I am not sure why some may be so opposed to saying it is in the "Romantic" vein...my disinclination to use such broad and generic descriptions in describing these great works of art has only continued to grow in the time after I was briefly involved with this debate, but I do see Pelléas as quite Romantic, though definitely not without elements of the Modern (not surprisingly as its harmonies were written by Debussy).
Is it in my top ten?  No (because Wagner wrote more than 10 operas! ) but it is now established in my repertory (thanks to Eric) and I would recommend that anyone who has not give it an objective listen.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Now that I have heard it, I am not sure why some may be so opposed to saying it is in the "Romantic" vein...

Opposition comes from Debussy himself.

And what you've heard is simply one man's (Karajan's) conception of the work - a conception which is as far removed from the aim of the piece as you can get.

[Wilhelm Richard]

Opposition comes from Debussy himself.

Debussy didn't want to be called an Impressionist either, but we see how much that was heeded.

And what you've heard is simply one man's (Karajan's) conception of the work - a conception which is as far removed from the aim of the piece as you can get.

I am not saying that it is not possible for a conductor to misinterpret a work (as it has occurred frequently in performing history) but, just out of curiosity, says who?  Debussy?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Debussy didn't want to be called an Impressionist either, but we see how much that was heeded.

This has nothing to do with public-generated labels. What I'm talking about is a specific work with a specified aim.

I am not saying that it is not possible for a conductor to misinterpret a work (as it has occurred frequently in performing history) but, just out of curiosity, says who?  Debussy?

Well, of course Debussy. Haven't you taken the time to read this thread? Did you take a look at the link I provided? 0:)

[Wilhelm Richard]

This has nothing to do with public-generated labels. What I'm talking about is a specific work with a specified aim.

With the specific aim being to "beat out a path where others can follow by adding their own discoveries and by ridding dramatic music of the heavy constraint from which it has suffered for so long a time"?  I would not say that Karajan's recording stands in contrast to this rather vague statement.

Well, of course Debussy. Haven't you taken the time to read this thread? Did you take a look at the link I provided? 0:)

I was unable to find the link where Debussy commented on Karajan's recording...could you provide it again please?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

With the specific aim being to "beat out a path where others can follow by adding their own discoveries and by ridding dramatic music of the heavy constraint from which it has suffered for so long a time"?  I would not say that Karajan's recording stands in contrast to this rather vague statement.

Nothing vague about that quote at all. In fact, it's quite obviously a scathing rebuke of the music that preceded Debussy's own!

Besides, you're not doing anybody any favors by cherry-picking quotes. BOTH quotes - and Debussy's simple chapter in Schonberg's The Lives Of The Great Composers - do much to shed light on this fascinating subject.

I was unable to find the link where Debussy commented on Karajan's recording...could you provide it again please?

Nobody said anything about "Debussy commenting on Karajan's recording". I merely pointed out that Debussy's EXPRESSED desire was to curb Wagnerian excesses. And that Karajan's recording sets these desires back forty years!

Anyway, PLEASE don't misunderstand me. My smilies should be indication enough that my intentions are not dictated by hostility, here. I am genuinely NOT trying to twist anyone's arm as regards to this subject. How you - or anybody - listens to P&M is completely up to you. But the fog created by Eric's fetish is such that I feel it necessary to bring at least a morsel of balance to the table. That's all. 0:)

[Anne]

Did anybody notice the quote from Khovanshchina in P&M?

Error corrected in my next post.

[Iago]

Sorry.

But to me P&M is one terrific soporific.

In fact it has taken the place of several sleeping pills that I have used in the past.
And MUCH less habit forming than pills. I can easily do WITHOUT that opera for decades at a time. And in fact, I have done without it for the last 50 years. Don't miss it at all.

[Anne]

I should have said Boris Godunov.  In the orchestra as Pimen writes the history of Boris' being responsible for the death of the child who would have been the legitimate successor to the Tsar, Moussorgsky writes music that sounds like a pen scratching/writing on paper.

That same allusion is repeated in the orchestra in P & M.  It is heard in the 1st orchestral section of the opera where there is no singing.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Many apologies!  Though I made sure to let you know my initial thoughts through a PM, it slipped my mind to return to this thread.  If nothing else, I wanted to acknowledge publicly that I know very few who are so committed to informing/enlightening others of things musical that they are willing to be so generous, and for that I thank you again.
Pelléas et Mélisande contains some of the most beautiful and calming music I have ever heard.  The perpetual lushness of the strings is probably what I enjoy the most about it (though I am sure Herr Karajan and that ol' Berlin Philharmonic had a little something to do with that ) The entire work flows very naturally, from a form perspective and in the way that the voices and the orchestra interact.
Now that I have heard it, I am not sure why some may be so opposed to saying it is in the "Romantic" vein...my disinclination to use such broad and generic descriptions in describing these great works of art has only continued to grow in the time after I was briefly involved with this debate, but I do see Pelléas as quite Romantic, though definitely not without elements of the Modern (not surprisingly as its harmonies were written by Debussy).

Is it in my top ten?  No. Because Wagner wrote more than 10 operas!

Give it some time and you'll see...

0:)

[Homo Aestheticus]

Sorry.

But to me P&M is one terrific soporific.

In fact it has taken the place of several sleeping pills that I have used in the past.
And MUCH less habit forming than pills. I can easily do WITHOUT that opera for decades at a time. And in fact, I have done without it for the last 50 years. Don't miss it at all.

 

But Mel, you are a man of fine tastes and a lifelong Wagnerian to boot.

Give Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic one more chance.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Anne,

I should have said Boris Godunov.  In the orchestra as Pimen writes the history of Boris' being responsible for the death of the child who would have been the legitimate successor to the Tsar, Moussorgsky writes music that sounds like a pen scratching/writing on paper.That same allusion is repeated in the orchestra in P & M.  It is heard in the 1st orchestral section of the opera where there is no singing.

Actually, I don't know  Boris  well at all... We all have repertoire gaps and it's one of my major ones in opera....   

I suppose I should return to it soon since Debussy adored it, apparently.