György Ligeti (1923-2006)

[andy]

Well let me ask you, what's SO GREAT about Ligeti's music?
You answer me.

It's interesting that you say Shostakovich went deeper than Ligeti, because I feel Shosta's music is very shallow compared to Ligeti's. Shostakovich never moved last late romanticism, whereas Ligeti pushed boundaries throughout his career. His 1st string quartet is not a very good example of this; Ligeti himself didn't think much of it. His 2nd string quartet; however, is his most important piece up till the end of the 60s because it sums up all of his techniques to that point.

Paul, I would think a self proclaimed iconoclast like yourself would enjoy the fact that Ligeti bucked the European avant-garde trend and never wrote serialized music. He called it a fad and wrote a paper pointing out errors in a totally serialized piece of Boulez, asking what's the point of such a rigid sructure if inventor can't even stick to it.

Past his earlier, very influential tone cluster music, Ligeti grew and began to incorporate other influences into his work. His piano etudes, for instance, show influence of African-pigmy music, fractals, and even the influence of American minimalists. His Piano Concerto (arguably one of the best PCs of the 20th century) uses these influences and is incredibly rich and deep -- much deeper than Shostakovich ever went. It's a very playful piece as well, which seems to be at odds with your theory that Ligeti's music was eternally smeared by Hitler's actions (I'm not saying some of his work wasn't, just that not all of it was).

On the topic of Ligeti's influences, one of his more "horrific" pieces Atmospheres was influenced by his fear of spiders. He sought to create "webs" of sound.

And all this is just scratching the surface on why Ligeti is one of the best and most influential composers of the 20th century...

[karlhenning]

Paul, I would think a self proclaimed iconoclast like yourself would enjoy the fact that Ligeti bucked the European avant-garde trend and never wrote serialized music.

Well, you see, Andy, what we have here is the difference between what iconoclasm means, and the warm-fuzzy feeling of proclaiming oneself an iconoclast, without any regard for what it might mean 

[paulb]

because I feel Shosta's music is very shallow compared to Ligeti's. -- much deeper than Shostakovich ever went. 

That just got to karl
No wonder Karl came over to the Pettersson topic with his suggestions that I should *let it go*.
I couldn't figure out what i said that *got to him*.
It was you Andy.
Karl should be a   nice chap and let Andy and myself say how we feel, as long as our comment offends on one personally, which is the case.

I respect what you say Andy, no issues with me. With Karl now, i can't speak for him.

[Ephemerid]

Just ordered this:



Heard an excerpt of Lontano & I WANT IT!!

I did download the first two books of his Etudes for piano-- every different stylistically from Atmospheres, Lontano & Lux Aeterna, but it sounds interesting-- some lovely stuff going on in this...  (listening to that now)

Also downloaded a recording of Ramifications (by the Ligeti Project).  I'm spending money I ought not to, but oh well 

[paulb]

I'm spending money I ought not to,

There's a bit of prophesy in there.

[bhodges]

Ah, now that is one of my favorites in the entire cycle!    It's a great performance of Lontano.  You might also want to try to find an Abbado/Vienna disc called Wien Modern, with a live performance of it that is excellent.  I'll see if I can find a cover pic to attach.  

Edit: ah, found it.  This is a great disc (but maybe not for the $38 that CD Universe wants for it).  Has a live Atmosphères also.

--Bruce

[bhodges]

And yes, yes, yes--the piano etudes are marvelous, and quickly becoming repertoire staples.  Check out Pierre-Laurent Aimard's versions of them.  He does a few on his live Carnegie Hall recital disc, for example. 

--Bruce

[Ephemerid]

Ah, now that is one of my favorites in the entire cycle!    It's a great performance of Lontano.  You might also want to try to find an Abbado/Vienna disc called Wien Modern, with a live performance of it that is excellent.  I'll see if I can find a cover pic to attach. 

--Bruce

I know the one you're talking about-- I spotted it as well-- I was weighing whether to get that one or this one, opted for the Sony disc. 

Still listening to these Etudes-- very rhythmic stuff! (yes, its Pierre-Laurent Aimard on the piano  )  I know next to nothing about him except "he's that 2001 guy" so I'm going to do a bit of homework on him now...

There's a bit of prophesy in there.

LOL Paul

[bhodges]

Still listening to these Etudes-- very rhythmic stuff! (yes, its Pierre-Laurent Aimard on the piano  )  I know next to nothing about him except "he's that 2001 guy" so I'm going to do a bit of homework on him now...

Well, despite the flood of suggestions, take your time and enjoy getting to know his work.  Lots of invention, and several people have commented on the playfulness and humor in some of his pieces.  (Personally, the first time I heard the Violin Concerto I couldn't help but chuckle...he uses an instrument not normally found in a symphony orchestra.)



--Bruce

[Symphonien]

What is there not to love about Ligeti? He was so incredibly versatile, writing amazing pieces in all genres, and he was not afraid to absorb a wide range of influences and explore them in different ways - yet he was also a great pioneer himself and no matter what's going on in the music, his personal style is always recognisable.

And I'm always discovering new pieces by him. For example, I just recently came across the sheet music for a piano piece called "3 Bagatelles". Written in 1961 and dedicated to the famous avant-garde pianist of the time, David Tudor, they seem to be Ligeti's way of poking fun at John Cage. Not sure if I'm really allowed to post this here or not, but I don't think Ligeti would really have minded since he didn't really take them seriously, with a recording not appearing in the Ligeti Project series which he overviewed. If you have a basic knowledge of musical notation, I hope you will find them as amusing as I did.

Ligeti - Trois Bagatelles

[MDL]

Ah, now that is one of my favorites in the entire cycle!    It's a great performance of Lontano.  You might also want to try to find an Abbado/Vienna disc called Wien Modern, with a live performance of it that is excellent.  I'll see if I can find a cover pic to attach.  

Edit: ah, found it.  This is a great disc (but maybe not for the $38 that CD Universe wants for it).  Has a live Atmosphères also.

--Bruce

The Abbado's good, but the Teldec recording is much better, I think. There's a slight breakdown of ensemble at a clinching point just after the final climax that has always bugged me on Abbado's recording. I flinch each time I hear it. No such grumbles about the Teldec.

[karlhenning]

Paul, you're luxuriating in your customary double-talk:

That just got to karl

[. . .]

With Karl now, i can't speak for him.

QED

[greg]

Heard an excerpt of Lontano & I WANT IT!!

some really good stuff, possibly my favorite Ligeti work.
You should check out the score, over 50 staves on some of the pages.

[karlhenning]

Lontano and Atmosphères are both beauties!

[andy]

Heard an excerpt of Lontano & I WANT IT!!

I did download the first two books of his Etudes for piano-- every different stylistically from Atmospheres, Lontano & Lux Aeterna, but it sounds interesting-- some lovely stuff going on in this...  (listening to that now)

Good choice with the Ligeti Project 2. It's got his three most famous tone cluster pieces on there, which are a great introduction to Ligeti. I can't pinpoint "the" Ligeti album I have that is my favorite, I have to agree with James on this...

Indeed. So is Melodien, the Chamber Concerto, the Double Concerto, the Violin Concerto, the Piano Concerto, Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet, Lux Aeterna, the Requiem, Trio for Violin, Horn & Piano, the Piano Etudes, the String Quartets, the Viola Sonata & others...

Ligeti didn't publish a whole lot of music, so almost his entire output is gold.

[Josquin des Prez]

It's interesting that you say Shostakovich went deeper than Ligeti, because I feel Shosta's music is very shallow compared to Ligeti's. Shostakovich never moved last late romanticism, whereas Ligeti pushed boundaries throughout his career.

There we go with the worship of innovation for innovation's sake. 

Notwithstanding that Shostakovich had no particular choice on the matter of "pushing boundaries", why would that make his music inherently shallow? What about Bach then, or Brahms? Are those also shallow?

[Josquin des Prez]

Here go read all the hype rom 15 Ligeti devotees on amazon. all give 5 stars,
FOR A CD WHICH HAS ONLY ONE WORK WORTH LISTENING, THE 2ND SQ TIMED AT 19 MINUTES

so you want me to buy a  cd for 19 minutes worth of music??
Get out of here.
The 6+ cds i 've heard from Ligeti were all bunk
Pump him if you care.
I'll have nothing to do with a  composer who is pumped, with very little to offer.

Well, i never said that the first string quartet is worthless, i just wouldn't call it a masterpiece. What you don't understand is that the music of Ligeti is extremely concentrated and there's more material packed into those 19 minutes then a Patterson's symphony. 

[Ephemerid]

There we go with the worship of innovation for innovation's sake. 

Notwithstanding that Shostakovich had no particular choice on the matter of "pushing boundaries", why would that make his music inherently shallow? What about Bach then, or Brahms? Are those also shallow?

Good call, Josquin!  Innovative music and good music are not necessarily synonymous.  Its not innovation in and of itself that makes a piece of music good (or great)-- rather it is what you do with the musical materials at hand (regardless of how much musical boundaries are pushed or not).  Otherwise music is just a matter of one-upmanship in terms of new musical innovations-- and also implies that they are disoposable once newer innovations come along. 

Musical innovations are just new tools to expand our expanding musical vocabulary, innovation should never be an end in itself. 

[Dr. Dread]

Is his last name pronounced "liggity"? Because that's how they pronounced it on MPR this morning.  And, if so, I've been pronouncing wrong: li-GET-ti. Maybe because I like author Thomas Ligotti.

[bhodges]

Yes, MPR is right: it is "LIG-uh-tee."  Did they play some of his music?

--Bruce