Did Melartin "steal"' from Sibelius

[schweitzeralan]

Just a minor concern, and I included this query in my Finnish Piano Music thread I was curious to ascertain if anyone knew of, or heard, or even played a series named "Finnish Piano Miniatures"? Several of these pieces are delightful.
However, I was most curious, as one of my favorite pieces, namely the "Barcarole", Op. 59, of Erkki Merlatin. It's recorded on the Finlandia label and is one of some 28 pieces.  It's also available in score.
When I played the second half of the work, I realized it appeared to be a blatant copy of Sibelius' theme from the second movement of his 2nd Symphony.
It's a short but very engaging and beautiful piece. This is a detail which in all probability would not concern most listeners.  I just thought someone out there may know this anthologized piano series and/or perhaps have recognized this possible fact.

[The new erato]

I will pose the obvious question: Was it composed before or after the Sibelius?

[schweitzeralan]

I will pose the obvious question: Was it composed before or after the Sibelius?

I will check this one out. Interesting response.

[matti]

Sibelius 2nd completed 1902, Melartin op.59 1909.

No idea about the Melartin piece though, so can't really say anything about the steal

[schweitzeralan]

Sibelius 2nd completed 1902, Melartin op.59 1909.

No idea about the Melartin piece though, so can't really say anything about the steal

Thanks much for the info.  I don't think there's much written or queried on the subject.  I just thought it interesting that the second part of the "Barcarole" sounded very much like the Sibelian theme.  Thanks again.

[Catison]

I doubt we will ever get a definitive answer about real stealing, but I will say it wouldn't surprise me Melartin subconsciously used the theme.  I think this for two reasons.  Firstly, because Melartin was not an original composer, but a composer heavily influenced by others, especially Sibelius and Mahler.  Secondly, the Sibelius is about the hardest thing to get out of your head once you've got it stuck, so I don't doubt it unrelentingly crops up in many composers' work as they try to release it from the corners of their brain.

[DavidRoss]

Per Stravinsky, Melartin merely "borrowed" from Sibelius.

[Josquin des Prez]

Who the hell is Melartin?

[schweitzeralan]

I doubt we will ever get a definitive answer about real stealing, but I will say it wouldn't surprise me Melartin subconsciously used the theme.  I think this for two reasons.  Firstly, because Melartin was not an original composer, but a composer heavily influenced by others, especially Sibelius and Mahler.  Secondly, the Sibelius is about the hardest thing to get out of your head once you've got it stuck, so I don't doubt it unrelentingly crops up in many composers' work as they try to release it from the corners of their brain.

It's certainly not unusual for composers to write or project ideas or to conceive melodic themes consciously 'borrowed' purposely" have been  from previous musical achievements. I mean how many "Variations on a theme by so an so . . .had  been written over the  centuries?  Indeed some of the  "Variations"  are an improvement over the origins.
This, of course, depends on a particular enthusiast's assessment; like, I personally prefer the Rachmaninoff over the Paganini. Yet I remain curious about the stealth, or the"'borrowing" of ideas, concepts, without overt admission or acknowledgment.  At least in the old days we had to use footnotes. As I'm writing this I'm thinking of Jacques Ibert, or' of Takumitsu, who blatantly quoted from Debussy in one of his works. Though he took it for granted that he was celebrating his favorite composer. I guess it's a vast topic.





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[eyeresist]

Whenever I have a bit of orchestral music stuck in my head, and can't identify the source, it's usually Sibelius

[DavidRoss]

Whenever I have a bit of orchestral music stuck in my head, and can't identify the source, it's usually Sibelius

Melartin's experience may have been similar.  Good to see you posting again, Mr. resist.

[schweitzeralan]

Who the hell is Melartin?

Merlartin was a Finnish composer who was probably well known during his lifetime.  He was primarily a symphonists, and his works were largely ignored during much of the last century.  He wrote during the late 19th century and early 20th.  With the one pianistic exception he was generally not influence by the maestro. I really know little about him; I tend to prefer his piano pieces.

[Catison]

I enjoy the last two symphonies.

[schweitzeralan]

I enjoy the last two symphonies.

Today I was listening to his piano pieces. Some very fine moments. some impressionistic elements which remind me of another Finnish composer, Selim Palmgren; or of the orchestral work "Symphonie Infantine," by Uuno Klami.

[Josquin des Prez]

Merlartin was a Finnish composer who was probably well known during his lifetime.  He was primarily a symphonists, and his works were largely ignored during much of the last century.  He wrote during the late 19th century and early 20th.  With the one pianistic deception he was generally not influence by the maestro. I really know little about him; I tend to prefer his piano pieces.

Just gave a go to his symphonies. Wow, he's actually pretty good. Not Sibelius good but at times i could actually mistake the two. Unexpected.

[schweitzeralan]

Just gave a go to his symphonies. Wow, he's actually pretty good. Not Sibelius good but at times i could actually mistake the two. Unexpected.

There are many fine Finnish, or Swedish or Norwegian for that matter,who are superb composers..  There is a thread, I believe, on this subject.  I haven't checked it t out in any detai as of yet.l.