Jesus is...

[Joe Barron]

Thor was so gay ...

SpongeSteve: thanks for quoting Walter Kaufmann. He is my favorite writer on matters of religion. His Critique of Religion and Philosphy beats any contribution Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins has to offer, and his contrast of Jesus and the prophets is indeed instructive. The self-interest in in Christian ethics is certainly a component. When I was in school, the question was always, How can I get into heaven? Not, How may I better love my enemies? And I remember my poor old mother often told me, "I'll get my reward in heaven" --- for putting up with me, she meant. 

Oy. 

[Catison]

This has become a great discussion, but I've been arguing about religion for thirty-five years, and the truth is, I've never changed anyone's mind. At times like this the best thing to do is follow Charles Ives's wonderful advice: shake hands, shut up, then walk up the mountainside to view the firmament.

Well, there is argument for the sake of understanding and argument for the purpose of change.  I think the latter is a mistake here, but the former is the essence of this place.  I've said it before, I come with no intentions of changing anyone's mind about any subject, but it is endlessly useful to have an intelligent discussion.  The art of debating is not about getting mad or about letting disagreements smolder because they are too hot to touch.  It is about throwing ideas around and improving your own ideas through an iterative process of tests.  If you truly value feedback, your arguments will naturally improve.  This doesn't mean people's opinions should stay static, because part of using feedback is to admit when you are wrong and move on.  But I see no reason to quit the game because you can't win.

[Joe Barron]

But I see no reason to quit the game because you can't win.

No reason to stop banging your head against a wall because the wall won't move, either. 

[Dr. Dread]

No reason to stop banging your head against a wall because the wall won't move, either. 

Swear to God, you took the words out of my brain.

[Catison]

Thor was so gay ...

SpongeSteve: thanks for quoting Walter Kaufmann. He is my favorite writer on matters of religion. His Critique of Religion and Philosphy beats any contribution Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins has to offer, and his contrast of Jesus and the prophets is indeed instructive. The self-interest in in Christian ethics is certainly a component. When I was in school, the question was always, How can I get into heaven? Not, How may I better love my enemies? And I remember my poor old mother often told me, "I'll get my reward in heaven" --- for putting up with me, she meant. 

Oy. 

Well, there is poor theology and good theology.  And lack of good theological understanding of Christianity does not mean there is not perfectly good Christian theology.

The salvation aspect of Christianity can be approached in a couple ways.  First, there is the question, "How much can I get away with?"  Then there is, "How do I live my life as close to God's plan as possible?"  In the example you gave above, you asked a question of the latter type but got a response of the former type.  "How do I get into heaven?"  should be answered with, "by aligning yourself more perfectly with God", not by scaring you about what may happen if you don't.

Salvation works both ways, as a carrot and a stick.  The carrot of course is heaven, and the stick is hell.  But it is not so clear cut.  Catholics, for instance, would never say a particular person is going or is currently in hell.  God judges us all independently and uniquely.  And one type of action may be damnable for some but not for others.  Obviously, if you have never heard of Jesus, then it is going to be quite hard to live your life like a Christian.  But you can seek the Truth as best you know how.  As my priest told me during RCIA, there is plenty of room for sin in the Christian life.  There is always confession and purgatory is a cleansing period in preparation for acceptance into heaven for those of us who have tried to live a good life but weren't always successful.

So salvation is not so mechanical.  Those quote Brian gave are intended for the questioning Christian who wants to align themselves more with God.  But if you haven't accepted the reality of Jesus, then of course they may look ridiculous and in some cases morally offensive.

I don't know, maybe this is a helpful, alternative perspective.

[Catison]

No reason to stop banging your head against a wall because the wall won't move, either. 

My question is then, why are you trying to get the wall to move at all?  Accept the wall won't move and bang away for fun.   

[Dr. Dread]

My question is then, why are you trying to get the wall to move at all?  Accept the wall won't move and bang away for fun.   

Hair will grow on your palms.

[Joe Barron]

Well, there is poor theology and good theology.  

Part of Kaufmann's critique of Christianity is that all theology is bad theology. His quarrel is with the discipline itself, not just this or that theologian. In Kaufmann's view, which I agree with, theology, defined as the "the science of God and his nature, his attributes and his relations with man and the universe," is essentially pointless, since there is no way of even knowing whether there is a God, or how many there are, or what his or their nature and attributes are. Anyone who tries to nail them down is improvising and saying whatever comes to mind.

Great interview with him here.

As for your other point, that goodness is to align yourself with God, I have no doubt that many Christians feel this way. Problem is, there's too much disagreement over just what that would entail. (Are we for gay rights because God wants us to love one another, or against them as infringement of God's sexual morality?) And in any event, the idea of reward is always there, lurking in the background. The alignment, whether through faith or works or a combination thereof, is always done with the view to to getting saved. And that's not bad theology. It's central to the faith. If you got to the pearly gates and God said, well, yes, you were a good person, but predestination is the rule (as some theologians have said), so off to hell you go, I think you'd feel pretty damned cheated. I went through all that crap for this?

You might not want to stress hell, but you can't get rid of it. It is the perennial backup.

My head hurts from this wall ...

[Catison]

In concern for your forehead, I'll just pick out a few things here.

Part of Kaufmann's critique of Christianity is that all theology is bad theology. His quarrel is with the discipline itself, not just this or that theologian. In Kaufmann's view, which I agree with, theology, defined as the "the science of God and his nature, his attributes and his relations with man and the universe," is essentially pointless, since there is no way of even knowing whether there is a God, or how many there are, or what his or their nature and attributes are. Anyone who tries to nail them down is improvising and saying whatever comes to mind.

But then I could say science is pointless, because we have no way of knowing that science is about discovering reality.  Unless you know someway to prove that science is real, I think this critique applies to both.

Theology starts with a set of assumptions (just like science) and tries to discover hidden meaning lurking behind the those assumptions.  For Catholics these assumptions are that Jesus existed as witnessed by the Bible and established his Church.  For Protestants, this assumption is that the Bible is the word of God.  For Muslims this assumption is that the Koran is divine writing delivered to Muhammad.  For scientists, this assumption is that we can experimentally and through reason understand the physical world.

As for your other point, that goodness is to align yourself with God, I have no doubt that many Christians feel this way. Problem is, there's too much disagreement over just what that would entail (are we for gay rights because God wants us to love one another, or against them as infringement of God's sexual morality?) And in any event, the idea of reward is always there, lurking in the background. The alignment, whther through faith or works or a combination thereof, is always done with the view to to getting saved. And that's not bad theology. It's central to the faith. If you got to the pearly gates and God said, well, yes, you were a good person, but predestination is the rule (as some theologians have said), so off to hell you go, I think you'd feel pretty damned cheated. I went through all that crap for this?

That's kind of a selfish way of looking at it, and I certainly don't look at it that way.  I am after understanding the Truth, as in what is real regardless of whether or not anyone believes it.  If pornography is Truly wrong, as in, in the fullest expression of God's plan, there is no pornography, then I want to stay away from it, regardless of how I personally feel looking at naked women.  Because this is the way it is in heaven, not so that I can suddenly feel the fullness of it when I get there (playing my cards right), but so I can bring a little bit of this heaven to earth now.  If every one of us was able to live our lives exactly as God had planned, there would be no more need for heaven, because we would be living it.  And it wouldn't be a horrible life, but one lived in the fullest expression of humanity.  This is perhaps something that is hard.  We do not give up anything following God's plan, but only when we don't.

My head hurts from this wall ...

Ok, sorry this wasn't as short as I initially intended.

[karlhenning]

Ok, sorry this wasn't as short as I initially intended.

Well, I consider that good value for reading.

[Elgarian]

The art of debating is not about getting mad or about letting disagreements smolder because they are too hot to touch.  It is about throwing ideas around and improving your own ideas through an iterative process of tests.  If you truly value feedback, your arguments will naturally improve.  This doesn't mean people's opinions should stay static, because part of using feedback is to admit when you are wrong and move on.

Nicely said, Brett. The journey (and the character of it) is as important as the destination. In fact I think the journey may be the destination, even though that looks a bit amiss when I write it down like that ...

[Dr. Dread]

Nicely said, Brett. The journey (and the character of it) is as important as the destination. In fact I think the journey may be the destination, even though that looks a bit amiss when I write it down like that ...

I don't think this particular journey involves a lot of talking. 

[Elgarian]

Someone voted that I am, in fact, Jesus.  0:)

I suppose we ought to check this out a bit, then. How's your carpentry, Dave?

[Dr. Dread]

I suppose we ought to check this out a bit, then. How's your carpentry, Dave?

Er...not so good. 

[Brian]

Great interview with him here.

Thanks for this link! Kaufmann is certainly my favorite writer on religion too, and I am only halfway through The Faith of a Heretic with the Critique up next. His elegance, wit, and breathtakingly clear thinking knock the stuffing out of today's atheist bigwigs. That interview made me smile because it brings up the marvelous passage in Faith of a Heretic where Kaufmann illustrates the problem with contemporary philosophy by imagining how Spinoza would write a grant proposal for his philosophy books.

I will be printing the interview out. Thank you. I especially like this: "The New Testament teaches that the great majority of man is tortured in all eternity. This I find a stupendously awful idea."

I wasn't going to post anymore today - as mentioned in the chat thread, I am currently packing to go on vacation - but that interview was far too valuable for me to not thank you for linking to it.

[Elgarian]

Er...not so good. 

Just as well. I think you're in the clear, then.

[Catison]

I will be printing the interview out. Thank you. I especially like this: "The New Testament teaches that the great majority of man is tortured in all eternity. This I find a stupendously awful idea."

Of course what he means is, "What my interpretation of the New Testament is that..."  The New Testament is not a book of systematic theology, unfortunately.  So there is no meaning in the words, "The New Testament teaches..."

[Florestan]

"The New Testament teaches that the great majority of man is tortured in all eternity."

And you call this "wit, elegance and breathtakingly clear thinking"? Moron is a much more proper description.

[Dr. Dread]

And you call this "wit, elegance and breathtakingly clear thinking"? Moron is a much more proper description.

Turn the other cheek.

[Florestan]

Turn the other cheek.

Atheists are very fond of this, but only when it applies to Christians...