Vaughan-Williams Symphonies

[Dana]

I'm curious - for those of you who spoke up in the WAYLT thread, why even both with Haitink when you've got sets like the pair that Boult recorded, plus Handley?

[karlhenning]

Well, for myself, I don't have either set of Boult's;  but two discs' worth of Boult.  I really enjoy the Handley set (his account of A London Symphony finally 'illuminated' that piece for me).  At about the time when I first read a number of neighbors dismissing the Haitink set, I had long owned EMI's original singleton issue of A Pastoral Symphony and the Fourth, which I liked straight off—so I was curious to hear the set for myself, and Harry very kindly made his available to me.  I am deeply grateful to Harry for sending it.

[karlhenning]

Lord save me for an heretic, but I like Haitink's recording of A Sea Symphony just as well as I do Boult's (Sept 1968), probably.

[Elgarian]

I'm curious - for those of you who spoke up in the WAYLT thread, why even both with Haitink when you've got sets like the pair that Boult recorded, plus Handley?

The answer for me is that I don't bother with it. It gathers dust on the shelf. As I said in the other thread, Haitink  misses so much of what I most value in RVW - that sense of English pastoral mysticism that somehow springs from deep roots in the land. (How the heck can I express this? That sounds a bit daft, really.)

There might be a significant difference between the response of someone who's English (like me) and someone who isn't.

[Dr. Dread]

(How the heck can I express this? That sounds a bit daft, really.)

It's like dancing about architecture. 

[Elgarian]

It's like dancing about architecture. 

I hope you'll come and see the ballet I'm working on Dave: Gothic Cathedrals.

[Dr. Dread]

I hope you'll come and see the ballet I'm working on Dave: Gothic Cathedrals.

Sounds nice and gloomy.

[eyeresist]

Well, Haitink has better sound than Boult or Handley, which is nice for stereophiles. For interpretation, I'd rank Handley highest of the three (allowing that I haven't heard Boult/Decca), but still prefer Previn for his more emotional approach.

[Lethevich]

There might be some interest because Haitink offers a different take - it is one of the more individual cycles I think. The problem is that a lot of people don't like this take I think a few people have described it as "endless legato". The sound is also very good, but this isn't as big of a plus as it might be with another composer, given how many modern RVW recordings there are. I, like Elgarian, own this set but never find myself listening to it. I also agree with Christo (in the listening thread) that Bakels is more more "English" sounding, including its slight lack of emotionalism (along the lines of Handley - which I love for that reason).

[Dana]

Well, Haitink has better sound than Boult or Handley, which is nice for stereophiles. For interpretation, I'd rank Handley highest of the three (allowing that I haven't heard Boult/Decca), but still prefer Previn for his more emotional approach.

      I've only heard a couple by Previn, but I feel like he misses the mark, and I think the emotion he expresses is the reason why. I get the impression that he thinks that Vaughan-Williams is primarily a pastoral composer, but there's plenty of conflict in Vaughan-Williams' music, even the Pastoral Symphony. Vaughan-Williams actually complained later in life that people were taking his music too slowly and sentimentally, and that led to this misconception of Vaughan-Williams being a pastoral composer. Benji (or someone who looked like him) made a great argument in defense of Vaughan-Williams as a non-pastoral composer a few years ago, I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Elgarian]

      I've only heard a couple by Previn, but I feel like he misses the mark, and I think the emotion he expresses is the reason why. I get the impression that he thinks that Vaughan-Williams is primarily a pastoral composer, but there's plenty of conflict in Vaughan-Williams' music, even the Pastoral Symphony.

Just to clarify my own comments in relation to this - the thing I referred to as 'English pastoral mysticism' doesn't exclude conflict, nor is it meant to imply a sentimental approach to RVW's music. You're right to say that there's conflict even in the 3rd symphony; there are indeed moments of desolation in the 3rd symphony, and an abundance of anguish elsewhere. Et in Arcadia, ego. RVW's pastorality rubs shoulders with quite frightening bleakness, but still it has to be present, in my view.

[Dana]

[/i] RVW's pastorality rubs shoulders with quite frightening bleakness, but still it has to be present, in my view.

      Indeed it does, it's this visage of pastorality that makes RVW's music tick - it's almost as though he acknowledges the presence of beauty in the world, and yet is unable to give himself up to it, and the Pastoral Symphony (as well as the 5th) really is the most demonstrative work in this debate. It's something I've always thought that he and Hindemith have in common - if you're going to have dissonance, you've got to have some consonance for it to grind against.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

The answer for me is that I don't bother with it. It gathers dust on the shelf. As I said in the other thread, Haitink  misses so much of what I most value in RVW - that sense of English pastoral mysticism that somehow springs from deep roots in the land. (How the heck can I express this? That sounds a bit daft, really.)

We all know the "conductor should be from composers country" placebo effect.

[eyeresist]

I've only heard a couple by Previn, but I feel like he misses the mark, and I think the emotion he expresses is the reason why. I get the impression that he thinks that Vaughan-Williams is primarily a pastoral composer

I'd like to know what you've heard of Previn. His 5 misses some of the darker elements of that work, and he fails to bring off the finale of 6, but I think his 3 is fairly comprehensive. The atmosphere he generates in 2, 7 and 9 are much more than "merely pastoral".

[Dana]

      Only the 1st and the 5th (and the Tallis Fantasia it's paired with). To be fair, the 5th is one of the easier ones to get carried away with in the pastorality, and the recording was the Telarc edition - I've never liked Telarc's unrealistic results when it comes to the mastering. It always ends up sounding like it was recorded in the National Cathedral.

[eyeresist]

Yes, Previn's Sea Symphony was less than ideal, but then I don't care much for the piece anyway.
Haven't heard the Telarc 5, but the London symphony on that label gives me an idea what you mean. It's an interesting experience (like an audio equivalent of the Turner painting on the cover) but not for every day. The comparative review in the 3rd Ear guide said Previn's interpretations of 5 got progressively more lush, so I think you'd would prefer his LSO recording. The boxset is cheap - pick it up! Just don't expect a powerhouse 4....

[Elgarian]

We all know the "conductor should be from composers country" placebo effect.

'Placebo effect' isn't an adequate way of describing what I'm talking about.

[Christo]

There might be a significant difference between the response of someone who's English (like me) and someone who isn't.

Might be, of course. But the most vehement and outspoken critics of Haitink's reading of the RVW cycle (`an endless & aimless legato') happen to be two Dutchmen, here.  0:)

[Elgarian]

Might be, of course. But the most vehement and outspoken critics of Haitink's reading of the RVW cycle (`an endless & aimless legato') happen to be two Dutchmen, here.

I think we have at least two alternatives: either to regard the two Dutchmen as honorary Englishmen; or to consider my tentative hypothesis disproved. I'm inclined towards both.

[Sergeant Rock]

....why even bother with Haitink when you've got sets like the pair that Boult recorded, plus Handley?

Because I love Vaughan Williams and I want to hear a full range of interpretation. There isn't just one way to play his music; and there is (I submit) no right way to play it either. Consider: neither Boult nor Handley's performances sound even remotely like the composer's own recordings. I do not believe they "own" this music.

And too, I enjoy Haitink because he's generally more expansive and "symphonic" than RVW's English interpreters. If he misses some of the "pastoral mysticism", he makes the music more universal. Favorite symphonies from Haitink's cycle: 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9.

Sarge