Getting at Handel's operas and oratorios

[Bulldog]

It is highly relevant since I do not like him as a soloist, it is quite unlikely I will buy a CD with him conducting either.  I am entitled to my opinion ...

Yes, you are, but wouldn't you prefer to make connections that entail a little bit of sense?  I find your connection on this one very odd, especially since you seem to buy just about every recording under the sun.   

[Elgarian]

do not hesitate to get this Rinaldo if you have any interest in Handel's Italian operas..............

Thanks DA - for this and all the tips in this thread, which I'll be revisiting when I next choose a Handel set.

[Coopmv]

Yes, you are, but wouldn't you prefer to make connections that entail a little bit of sense?  I find your connection on this one very odd, especially since you seem to buy just about every recording under the sun.   

I have some older recordings by Rene Jacobs on LP's which I acquired back in the mid to late 70's.  Then I decided I really did not like him much as a soloist and as such I do not have one recording by him on CD, which is independent of whether he is a soloist or a conductor.  This line of logic makes perfect sense to me.  If I do not own 29 versions of Bach Organ Works, I cannot be considered as buying every recording under the sun.

[knight66]

I have followed this exchange and it leaves me baffled. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but currently your opinion of Jacobs as conductor is based on Jacobs the singer. Your idea of logic must be very different from mine. I simply fail to understand your line of argument.

Mike

[Coopmv]

I have followed this exchange and it leaves me baffled. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but currently your opinion of Jacobs as conductor is based on Jacobs the singer. Your idea of logic must be very different from mine. I simply fail to understand your line of argument.

Mike

I really have no opinion on Jacobs as a conductor.  As my collection of Handel's oratorios/operas has already included many conductors I like, I just do not feel it is necessary to enlarge that roster any further.

[knight66]

I see.

Mike

[Elgarian]

I suppose our choices aren't always logical, and I was just now trying to think of some apparently daft things I do myself. For example, as a general rule I tend not to like countertenors much - so I'll tend to buy a Handel set where the countertenor part is taken by a contralto even if the performance as a whole is considered less successful than an alternative with a countertenor in the role. So my prejudice actually robs me of a better performance, in such a case. I may also choose a performance just because it has Sophie Daneman singing, or Wm Christie conducting, because I admire them so much and like the idea that they're 'present' in the recording regardless of how well they might actually have done on this occasion. It may seem foolish, but it's one of those intangible things that makes a kind of subjective sense. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea to let these ideas run rampant, unchecked - but they're a factor.

With Coop, since he dislikes Jacobs's singing, I guess he gets negative vibes from the idea of him being present on the recording even as conductor. I think I can understand that.

[DarkAngel]

If you want to hear what makes Jacobs/HM Rinaldo so special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djJNBBLkumA

The brass fanfares are beautifully done and have wonderful 3D staging effect when listening on your home stereo.
Genaux does have a touch of vibrato/boxiness to her vocals, but that is part of what gives her the darker tonal pallate.
Listen to the vocal interplay between Vivica and the brass section, absolutely wonderful stuff that can make you a Handel opera fanatic.

Her ability to freely ornament the repeated aria sections (3:30-4:30 in sample) is why she is in high demand for baroque castrati roles, do not hesitate to get this Rinaldo if you have any interest in Handel's Italian operas..............

If you want more evidence of  mezzo Vivica Genaux's baroque talents..........



On the recent Vivaldi Atenaide opera recording she teams up with Sandrine Piau and others for some amazing
vocal arias, Elgarian.......keep the wallet open!  

[Que]

It is highly relevant since I do not like him as a soloist, it is quite unlikely I will buy a CD with him conducting either.  I am entitled to my opinion ...

Indeed, but only your comment on his singing is an opinion, your comment on his conducting is merely a guess...

And for the record: I share your reservations on René Jacobs' singing, but as a (Baroque & Classical) conductor I think he is really in the top league. One of the best and groundbreaking conductors around. Try him!

Q

[The new erato]

And for the record: I share your reservations on René Jacobs' singing, but as a (Baroque & Classical) conductor I think he is really in the top league. One of the best and groundbreaking conductors around. Try him!

Q

Exactement!

You are missing out on one of my two baroque conducting heroes. You remember my advice on the other one, Minkowski (whose La Ressurezione probably is my favorite recording of a Handel oratorio)? 

[Wendell_E]

And for the record: I share your reservations on René Jacobs' singing, but as a (Baroque & Classical) conductor I think he is really in the top league.

Exactement, indeed.

On the other hand, there's Domingo, who's a lot better (even now) as a singer than he is a conductor.

[Coopmv]

Exactement, indeed.

On the other hand, there's Domingo, who's a lot better (even now) as a singer than he is a conductor.

An over the hill opera singer who just will not quit.  Indeed, my instinct tells me to stay away from his recordings as a conductor ...

[Coopmv]

I suppose our choices aren't always logical, and I was just now trying to think of some apparently daft things I do myself. For example, as a general rule I tend not to like countertenors much - so I'll tend to buy a Handel set where the countertenor part is taken by a contralto even if the performance as a whole is considered less successful than an alternative with a countertenor in the role. So my prejudice actually robs me of a better performance, in such a case. I may also choose a performance just because it has Sophie Daneman singing, or Wm Christie conducting, because I admire them so much and like the idea that they're 'present' in the recording regardless of how well they might actually have done on this occasion. It may seem foolish, but it's one of those intangible things that makes a kind of subjective sense. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea to let these ideas run rampant, unchecked - but they're a factor.

With Coop, since he dislikes Jacobs's singing, I guess he gets negative vibes from the idea of him being present on the recording even as conductor. I think I can understand that.

Elgarian, You made the best analysis.  Negative vibes can be quite overwhelming.

[knight66]

 

An over the hill opera singer who just will not quit.  Indeed, my instinct tells me to stay away from his recordings as a conductor ...

Half wrong there....he is not over the hill and has been conducting for at least 20 years, a point at which he was still in his prime. As to his conducting, I have not heard any that I would recommend to anyone.

Then there was Dietrich Fischer Dieskau.....he tried his hand at conducting, with mixed results.

But Jacobs is in a different league as a conductor. Daniel Taylor, the singer, looks set also to end up as a talented conductor.

Mike

[Elgarian]

On the recent Vivaldi Atenaide opera recording she teams up with Sandrine Piau and others for some amazing
vocal arias, Elgarian.......keep the wallet open!  

It never closes, DA, it never closes ....

Incidentally, listening again to the Baroque Diva Robots again for the zillionth time yesterday, I hereby declare that it is the most outstanding Handel collection that I own. (Amazing when you think that duets are relatively rare in Handel.) They sing as if each knows so intimately and immediately what the other is going to do, that the precision of the singing becomes a platform for performances that take off into some kind of expressive stratosphere, beyond all expectation. I find myself constantly astonished by these recordings.



Just listen and adore.

[Anne]

 

An over the hill opera singer who just will not quit.  Indeed, my instinct tells me to stay away from his recordings as a conductor ...

You are so right about Domingo's conducting talents.  I remember the first time I heard him conduct on a Saturday broadcast from the Met.  It was so awful that I always make sure he is not the conductor of a disc I am contemplating purchasing.

I have been eavesdropping on everyone's conversation which has given me many pointers to pay attention to.  I am a true novice in this field and thank everyone.

Coopmv,
I know you are not interested in hearing Jacobs conduct and I respect your wishes.  I just would like to say that had it not been for Jacobs' conducting, there is no way I would be even considering listening to Handel or Vivaldi.  He changed my mind about the music of this period - knocked the cobwebs off from it and added exciting touches of beautiful brass instruments, fanfares, and wonderful tempos.  He is thrilling, vibrant, incredibly alive and brings the music to life!  

[Coopmv]

You are so right about Domingo's conducting talents.  I remember the first time I heard him conduct on a Saturday broadcast from the Met.  It was so awful that I always make sure he is not the conductor of a disc I am contemplating purchasing.

I have been eavesdropping on everyone's conversation which has given me many pointers to pay attention to.  I am a true novice in this field and thank everyone.

Coopmv,
I know you are not interested in hearing Jacobs conduct and I respect your wishes.  I just would like to say that had it not been for Jacobs' conducting, there is no way I would be even considering listening to Handel or Vivaldi.  He changed my mind about the music of this period - knocked the cobwebs off from it and added exciting touches of beautiful brass instruments, fanfares, and wonderful tempos.  He is thrilling, vibrant, incredibly alive and brings the music to life!  

Anne,  I grew up with the music produced by the trio of English conductors, Hogwood, Gardiner and Pinnock and had actually attended concerts given by two of them in NYC.  My love for Handel's works has gone back many years and there are few recorded Handel oratorios I do not already have.  But as Elgarian put so eloquently in an earlier post, it is sometimes difficult to shake off that negative vibes ...

It looks like you experienced an epiphany when you heard a Handel's recording conducted by Jacobs ...

[Coopmv]

Here is a pretty delightful Nine German Arias, part of my Handel collection.  While it is an older recording, the SQ is still excellent ...

[Anne]

 I found the "Tannhauser" DVD from Bayreuther Festspiele conducted by Collins.  Thanks for that tip.

I also discovered a "Der Fliegende Hollander" DVD conducted by Sawallisch with Bayerisches Staatsorchester.

Thank you for the "Nine German Arias" CD recommendation.  Much appreciated!

[Coopmv]

Anne,

My love for Handel's oratorios pre-dated my serious interest in JS Bach passions by a more than a decade.  I only started to get seriously interested in St Matthew Passion a few years ago.  My 9 sets of St Matthew Passion on CD were all purchased in the past three years while the 2 sets on LP have been languishing on the shelf for the last twenty years.  Great singing in a Handel's oratorio is the prerequisite for good listening and virtuoso orchestral playing is just icing on the cake.  Here is the first Handel oratorio that I truly enjoyed that started almost 30 years ago.  Indeed, some on the forum would myopically deride it as non-HIP.  But the soprano singing by Elly Ameling was nothing short of exquisite.  After all, female vocalists like Elly Ameling and Janet Baker from the 70's were some of the greatest singers from the last 50 years ...