4 Great Englishmen

[robnewman]

Just like Mr. Cromwell!

Care to give us an example ? Cromwell was resisting religious fanaticism. He was up against paid stooges under the Jesuit Order who were in rebellion and who wanted to invade and rule England. In Scotland, Ireland, England and even from the continent of Europe. Simple. As for Ireland, the reason the English were there in the first place is because the island of Ireland was given to King Henry 2nd of England long, long before Cromwell's time. By who ? By the Pope in Rome. Haven't you read your history ? Then came the Reformation and that fact was of course inconvenient.  But truth is airbrushed out of your history books and it obviously forms no part of your understanding, does it ? 

[val]

I am not English but I think that Elisabeth the First, Churchill, Shakespeare and William Byrd would be my choice.

[The new erato]

Haven't you read your history ?

But truth is airbrushed out of your history books and it obviously forms no part of your understanding, does it ? 

When you sometimes bother to argue your case, as you do in this post, condescending remarks like these only weaken your case.

Remember; it's when you don't have a leg to stand on that you should use them. Save your bullets for when they're needed.

[robnewman]

When you sometimes bother to argue your case, as you do in this post, condescending remarks like these only weaken your case.

Remember; it's when you don't have a leg to stand on that you should use them. Save your bullets for when they're needed.

There is nothing 'condescending' on this issue. The island of Ireland was given by the Pope in Rome to King Henry 2nd of England to reign over. And that's why the English started to rule there in Ireland in the first place. Read your history. This simple and plain truth, this fact of history, is however amazingly removed from textbooks, even on the history of Ireland. It's an inconvenient truth. Why not face this fact ? So that generations of students have grown up in total ignorance of such a plain fact of history. To suggest England 'invaded' Ireland is to be in complete ignorance of this fact. And we do not wish to be ignorant people, do we ? Guess who removed this fact from textbooks ?

[Herman]

Read your history. This simple and plain truth, this fact of history, is however amazingly removed from textbooks, even on the history of Ireland.

One of your habitual paradoxes. Requiring people to read a non-existent book.

It's an inconvenient truth. Why not face this fact ? So that generations of students have grown up in total ignorance of such a plain fact of history. To suggest England 'invaded' Ireland is to be in complete ignorance of this fact. And we do not wish to be ignorant people, do we ? Guess who removed this fact from textbooks ?

May we perhaps now come to the conclusion that your big, all encompassing beef is with the church of Rome and Jesuits? If so, thank you, we will ponder this deeply and eventually move on with our lives.

Just a little last question: what's the story with this "Royal School of Music"? Was it really hard to go to a non-existent school?

[The new erato]

Shades of Galtwort here, I should think.

[robnewman]

Pope Hadrian to King Henry 2nd of England (Papal Bull 'Laudabiliter') given at Rome in 1155 - includes the following -


You have signified to us, our well-beloved son in Christ, that you propose to enter the island of Ireland in order to subdue the people and make them obedient to laws, and to root out from among them the weeds of sin; and that you are willing to yield and pay yearly from every house the pension of one penny to St Peter, and to keep and preserve the rights of the churches in that land whole and inviolate.

We, therefore, regarding your pious and laudable design with due favour, and graciously assenting to your petition, do hereby declare our will and pleasure, that, for the purpose of enlarging the borders of the Church, setting bounds to the progress of wickedness, reforming evil manners, planting virtue, and increasing the Christian religion, you do enter and take possession of that island, and execute therein whatsoever shall be for God's honour and the welfare of the same.

And, further, we do also strictly charge and require that the people of that land shall accept you with all honour, and dutifully obey you, as their liege lord, saving only the rights of the churches, which we will have inviolably preserved...'

//

Here (and in other documents of the time) is proof positive that English rule over the island of Ireland occurred with the full approval of the Papacy in Rome. Since Henry 2nd of England was a loyal Roman Catholic. And this rule of Ireland by the Kings of England continued without dispute and with the full approval of the Papacy in Rome.  For centuries. It continued up to and well beyond the Reformation. The mass of documents consistent with this fact are today held in London at the Guildhall Library and in Rome and have all been published.

Inconvenient facts of history. But facts all the same. English rule of Ireland was begun with the full approval and encouragement of the Papacy itself.

//

[Elgarian]

Guess who removed this fact from textbooks ?

William Shakespeare?

Mozart?

Neil Armstrong?

Elvis?

[robnewman]

William Shakespeare?

Mozart?

Neil Armstrong?

Elvis?

The people who removed this from textbooks are the same people who make you believe that England and Oliver Cromwell 'invaded' Ireland. OK ?

History is established fact. It is an established fact that Oliver Cromwell was in Ireland because Ireland was under the rule of England, and had been since the time of King Henry 2nd in the late 12th century.

Am I going too fast for you ? And do you finally accept this fact ?

Here is a second fact. Can you handle this ? The Christian Church in Ireland (the Celtic church) existed centuries BEFORE the Roman Catholic Church ever arrived in Ireland. The same is true of England.

Am I going too fast for you ? And do you accept these facts ? It was Henry 2nd of England who oversaw the domination of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland.

Thank You

[robnewman]

One of your habitual paradoxes. Requiring people to read a non-existent book.

May we perhaps now come to the conclusion that your big, all encompassing beef is with the church of Rome and Jesuits? If so, thank you, we will ponder this deeply and eventually move on with our lives.

Just a little last question: what's the story with this "Royal School of Music"? Was it really hard to go to a non-existent school?

If you have any points to raise on these '4 Great Englishmen' you are free to make them. OK ? If not, please behave yourself. Thank You.

[Elgarian]

I think it must have been Elvis, then.

[robnewman]

I think it must have been Elvis, then.

This is the closest you have come to discussing 4 Great Englishmen. By the end of term you will, at this speed, be able to discuss 4 Great Englishmen.

Congratulations !

[Elgarian]

If we're going to have Elgar represented, let's not have the bombast of the P&C for the five billionth time. Let's have something heartbreakingly delicate, sensual, deeply personal. Something that really epitomises the man. Like the violin sonata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQL2wh-o69U

Or the gruelling, naked soul-searching of the cadenza of the violin concerto (with half an eye on my avatar, maybe?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAdepmPOJmM

Quoted for evidence.

[karlhenning]

Well done. That guy's "grasp" of the facts is notorious 

[Elgarian]

I still think it was probably Elvis. (Whatever it was we were wondering about who did it.)

[Gurn Blanston]

History is established fact.

History is written by the winners. It is only an established fact from their point of view. So what you are writing about Cromwell and what I 'know' about Cromwell match up quite nicely, because we have both been exposed to the same 'facts'. Those written by the winner of whichever struggle presented itself then or later. Sad but true.

[robnewman]

History is written by the winners. It is only an established fact from their point of view. So what you are writing about Cromwell and what I 'know' about Cromwell match up quite nicely, because we have both been exposed to the same 'facts'. Those written by the winner of whichever struggle presented itself then or later. Sad but true.

Gurn,

I have the complete letters and speeches of Oliver Cromwell and several biographies. The hostility towards him is amazing and it comes mostly (I must say) from Roman Catholic sources which are hugely and often grossly misinformed. It's sad people do not read. That they reduce everything to dogmatic statements. Oliver Cromwell stood for England and for religious toleration when his own nation had been 'excommunicated' by the intrigues of Rome and when Rome sought to infiltrate its government and to invade it militarily, even through the monarchy. Repeatedly. It was Oliver Cromwell who finally asserted the sovereignty of the people of England to their own government, after literally centuries of feudalism and elitism. Who made England a Republic. This long, long before the USA was ever founded. If it was not for Oliver Cromwell we would still have the 'divine right of kings' and we would still be ruled over by elitist dynasties. He was (and I've studied his life in some detail) undoubtedly one of the greatest men England has produced. Hated only by those who hate anything which gives freedom and liberty from foreign domination. If we believe in sovereign nation states Cromwell is up there with the greatest men of any nation. Later, the elites worked to restore themselves. So, who won ? He resisted the 'united nations' of his time. I dare say his speeches would inspire any American.

On his tombstone is the inscription, 'No king but Christ'.

Let others say what they will. He was a great man and his service to England was truly massive.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.reggie.net/photos/england/cambridgeshire/ely/4797956_ely_cromwells_house-600.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.reggie.net/photo.php%3Falbid%3D200%26ph%3D4797956&usg=__31e0sPO6faHNYwmtM0pf_6LXgNw=&h=450&w=600&sz=36&hl=en&start=1&sig2=NofhF8B1sepmbXDWwsDz1Q&tbnid=bG1-ozlU_EbW3M:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCROMWELL%2527S%2BHOUSE%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&ei=39FoSoqhO5COjAe4qdGZCw

[Joe_Campbell]

Rob, I see you are still ignoring a thread with your name in the title. We will ask you again: will you stop posting off-topic remarks in other threads until you addressed this glaring inconsistency in your replies? We are waiting...

[robnewman]

Here is an excerpt from one of his famous speeches to the politicians in the House of Parliament in Westminster -

http://yourfreedomandours.blogspot.com/2009/05/oliver-cromwells-great-address-to-house.html

[robnewman]

Rob, I see you are still ignoring a thread with your name in the title. We will ask you again: will you stop posting off-topic remarks in other threads until you addressed this glaring inconsistency in your replies? We are waiting...

And I see you are again posting irrelevancies on this thread, which has an altogether different title. Doesn't it ?  So I choose this one. It's a small price for you to pay.