Bach Brilliant edition and other large box set recordings

[DavidW]

If you like HIP the cantatas and orchestral works are sure to please and are recent in great sound.  The vocal works are older traditional recordings, conservative approach, pretty good sounding but a little muddy.  Can do way better.

The keyboard works are performed on harpsichord, and the two performers there have been bettered but they are pretty darned good.  I can say the same about the recordings of the organ works.

I think that overall it's consistently good, but not great.  You can do a hell of alot better, but at that price point?  No way.

[DavidW]

If you're getting it for the cantatas, you should know that the singing has no passion whatsoever.

For any other category there are better box sets at bargain price.  If you want to hear ALL of Bach and you're on a budget get this set.  But there are alternatives if that's not what you want.

[Papageno]

If you're getting it for the cantatas, you should know that the singing has no passion whatsoever.

For any other category there are better box sets at bargain price.  If you want to hear ALL of Bach and you're on a budget get this set.  But there are alternatives if that's not what you want.

Have you got any recommendations?
I have the impression that Karl Richter is particularly good for his Bach, is that right?

[DavidW]

Have you got any recommendations?
I have the impression that Karl Richter is particularly good for his Bach, is that right?

I love Richter, unless you demand HIP, try the Richter box set for the vocal works.  He is traditional, but not overly romanticized; he is proto-HIP in style.  If you like that style, then Leonhardt/Harnoncourt's old cycle at bargain price, or Rilling's cycle at mid-price are for you for the cantatas.  Rilling is basically the modern Richter.

[Coopmv]

If you're getting it for the cantatas, you should know that the singing has no passion whatsoever.

I have the set and feel that the quality of singing is somewhat uneven.  I think Ruth Holton stands out among the female soloists.  Holton has also been engaged by Gardiner in a number of his previous recordings.  All in all, it is a reasonable set for the money.

[Coopmv]

I love Richter, unless you demand HIP, try the Richter box set for the vocal works.  He is traditional, but not overly romanticized; he is proto-HIP in style.  If you like that style, then Leonhardt/Harnoncourt's old cycle at bargain price, or Rilling's cycle at mid-price are for you for the cantatas.  Rilling is basically the modern Richter.

I have the Richter's Brandenburg Concertos on DVD.  To consider Richter as totally non-HIP is definitely wrong, as I noticed he scaled the size of his ensemble according to the concertos.  In fact, he did not have the full Munich Bach Orchestra performed the entire Brandenburg Concertos.  For Concerto No. 6, he actually had no more than 6 or 7 players while he conducted from the harpsichord.

[DavidW]

I have the Richter's Brandenburg Concertos on DVD.  To consider Richter as totally non-HIP is definitely wrong, as I noticed he scaled the size of his ensemble according to the concertos.  In fact, he did not have the full Munich Bach Orchestra performed the entire Brandenburg Concertos.  For Concerto No. 6, he actually had no more than 6 or 7 players while he conducted from the harpsichord.

Well that's why I said proto-HIP and not non-HIP.   I was trying to suggest that he was one of the first (of our century) to try to play Bach as if he lived in the 18th century and not the 19th century.

[SonicMan46]

Hi Papageno - I'm not sure 'how much' JS Bach you own currently?  But Papa Bach wrote tons of varied instrumental and vocal music, so if you do not want to just buy a HUGE box of discs (many of which you may not enjoy or want), then maybe you should give the forum members some idea on what you may want to hear from this composer?

There are plenty of 'bargain' offerings out there in JS Bach, so please provide some information on your preferences - plenty of recommendations should follow - 

[Papageno]

I have the Richter's Brandenburg Concertos on DVD.  To consider Richter as totally non-HIP is definitely wrong, as I noticed he scaled the size of his ensemble according to the concertos.  In fact, he did not have the full Munich Bach Orchestra performed the entire Brandenburg Concertos.  For Concerto No. 6, he actually had no more than 6 or 7 players while he conducted from the harpsichord.

I have that, is it not a good performance - because I enjoy it.

SonicMan I'm particularly obsessed with his Matthäus Passion, Mass in C minor, not crazy about his Johannes Passion, - all with Richter.  And Die Kunst der Fuge

[Coopmv]

Well that's why I said proto-HIP and not non-HIP.   I was trying to suggest that he was one of the first (of our century) to try to play Bach as if he lived in the 18th century and not the 19th century.

Karajan was definitely non-HIP, as I believe he had the full BPO performed Brandenburg Concertos.  The same was probably true for Klemperer, if he indeed recorded at least part of the Brandenburg Concertos.

[prémont]

Karajan was definitely non-HIP, as I believe he had the full BPO performed Brandenburg Concertos.  The same was probably true for Klemperer, if he indeed recorded at least part of the Brandenburg Concertos.

Klemperer was probably the first to perform the Sixth Brandenburg one player per part, as far as I know in the early 1930es with Paul Hindemith on first solo viol and Klemperer himself leading from the harpsichord (!).

He recorded the Brandenburg´s twice. In the late 1940es for Vox with assorted soloists from France, and in the early 1960es for EMI with a selected ensemble from the Philharmonia Orchestra. There is no reference to the scoring in the booklets, but judged by the sound small forces are used in both recordings, probably about the size of Richters orchestra except in Concerto no. six (!), which is performed as a kind of Concerto Grosso with a solo trio (two viols and one violoncello) and a rather small ripieno.

[Coopmv]

Klemperer was probably the first to perform the Sixth Brandenburg one player per part, as far as I know in the early 1930es with Paul Hindemith on first solo viol and Klemperer himself leading from the harpsichord (!).

He recorded the Brandenburg´s twice. In the late 1940es for Vox with assorted soloists from France, and in the early 1960es for EMI with a selected ensemble from the Philharmonia Orchestra. There is no reference to the scoring in the booklets, but judged by the sound small forces are used in both recordings, probably about the size of Richters orchestra except in Concerto no. six (!), which is performed as a kind of Concerto Grosso with a solo trio (two viols and one violoncello) and a rather small ripieno.

So Klemperer was partially HIP.  I believe Furtwangler recorded some of the Brandenburg Concertos as well.

[DavidW]

I have that, is it not a good performance - because I enjoy it.

[prémont]

So Klemperer was partially HIP.  I believe Furtwangler recorded some of the Brandenburg Concertos as well.

I have not heard Furtwängler´s Brandenburgs (he only recorded nos. 3 and 5,  himself playing the piano(!) solo in no. 5. From the description of the recording (in Bruce Haynes´:The end of early music) the interpretation is overly romantic, as I would expect.

[Papageno]

Sorry, I think I'm missing something, is HIP some music terminology, or is it hip, synonym to fashionable.
I'll look for the Klemperer Brandenburg, does anyone know of a torrent available?

[DavidW]

Sorry, I think I'm missing something, is HIP some music terminology, or is it hip, synonym to fashionable.
I'll look for the Klemperer Brandenburg, does anyone know of a torrent available?

HIP=Historically Informed Performance, I prefer Haynes name "period style" since it's considerably less pretentious!

The idea is that musicians try to emulate the style in which music was played at that time, and sometimes play on period instruments.  What they strive for

(a) selective vibrato (instead of continuous)
(b) emphasis on rhythmic nuances, not all instruments play at the same beat like the orchestra was following a metronome
(c) short phrasing (instead of legato)
(d) ornamentation (i.e. trills)

[Bogey]

If you're getting it for the cantatas, you should know that the singing has no passion whatsoever.

Cannot have that.  It would come across as Richterish!   ducks head to avoid being hit with a dead armadillo

[DavidW]

Cannot have that.  It would come across as Richterish!   ducks head to avoid being hit with a dead armadillo

Or maybe I'll just hurl a yellow tie at you!

[Papageno]

HIP=Historically Informed Performance, I prefer Haynes name "period style" since it's considerably less pretentious!

The idea is that musicians try to emulate the style in which music was played at that time, and sometimes play on period instruments.  What they strive for

(a) selective vibrato (instead of continuous)
(b) emphasis on rhythmic nuances, not all instruments play at the same beat like the orchestra was following a metronome
(c) short phrasing (instead of legato)
(d) ornamentation (i.e. trills)

Ah, a period performance then.
Thank you for the explanation.

[Coopmv]

I have not heard Furtwängler´s Brandenburgs (he only recorded nos. 3 and 5,  himself playing the piano(!) solo in no. 5. From the description of the recording (in Bruce Haynes´:The end of early music) the interpretation is overly romantic, as I would expect.

I think overly romantic performance has always been a problem with the Brandenburg Concertos performed by a big orchestra ...