Beethoven Symphony No.5

[DavidW]

Scherchen's 3rd also shows that energy and drive that you speak of.  One of the best on record, I suppose I should hear him in the other symphonies, such as the fifth that you have discussed.

[ccar]

      ... Just kidding!I could listen to people talk about this symphony for hours on end - it's one of those symphonies that can be performed in a hundred different styles, each with just as much conviction as the next, and I'd listen to each of those performances. Perhaps this is because of the natural "freedom and continuous energy and drive" that you speak of.

Point taken. I can share the test if you really need it.   

[Dana]

Nah, I've already taken it. And no, I don't care to disclose my results.

[MichaelRabin]

Mr Darcy - how is the Vanska BIS Fifth please? Some sites like CT think highly of it. Now the new deal is the whole Vanska set of 9 on 5 SACDs is priced as only 2 SACDs?

On the issue of Carlos Kleiber being tops - Stephen Johnson and others, don't they hear that
CK even plays the opening motif more like a triplet followed by a long note in the 1st mvt?
Karajan (1977) does the rhythm better - which is a quaver (1/8 note) rest, 3 quavers followed by a minim (1/2 note) with a long pause? What do all of you think?

[PerfectWagnerite]

On the issue of Carlos Kleiber being tops - Stephen Johnson and others, don't they hear that
CK even plays the opening motif more like a triplet followed by a long note in the 1st mvt?
Karajan (1977) does the rhythm better - which is a quaver (1/8 note) rest, 3 quavers followed by a minim (1/2 note) with a long pause? What do all of you think?

How can you tell in the beginning? Unless you see it in video and see that the orchestra doesn't sound the first note until a split second after the conductor gives the downbeat. On CD you just hear da-da-da-BOOM since the first 8th note is silent. However, you will be able to hear the second da-da-da-BOOM as to whether it is triplet or eighth rest followed by 3 eight notes since that is following the 1/2 note fermata.

[MichaelRabin]

I played it to a pianist friend - one after the other and she came to the same conclusion as me (a violinist). We can feel the rhythm - my friend. No need to see a video.

[PerfectWagnerite]

If you are going by feel I can't argue with you.

In general I do not like Karajan's Beethoven, he is just one big bore in this repertoire, much like his Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Schubert, Haydn and Mozart.

[Renfield]

If you are going by feel I can't argue with you.

NB 'feeling' in the sense of 'emotional response' and 'feeling' in the sense of 'intuitive grasp' (e.g. 'feeling for rhythm') are not the same.

And if my knowledge of musical theory isn't entirely useless, I believe the whole notion of tempi arises from the need to create a logical separation of musical 'space'. In which case there should indeed be an audible difference between the two cases MichaelRabin describes above, or the whole system of tempi, bars, etc. (in which such a notion as a 'rest' can exist) would be trivialised.

[Elgarian]

I've probably mentioned this here before, but my favourite recording of this piece is definitely that by Mr. Immerseel and the Anima Eterna.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Sl2xh-CoI

Fantastic rendition - enough speed to make it exciting, yet enough gravity to make it effective and dramatic!  

I've raved about Immerseel's recording in the HIP Beethoven thread, but I'll gladly join you and rave about it here once more. Listening to Immerseel's version was like listening to the symphony for the first time. Windows opened, and clear fresh air blew in. It races along like a motorbike, combining a raw urgency with a precise delicacy (don't ask me how this near-paradox is achieved - I'm just completely persuaded that it is); and it seems as if every instrument is clearly articulating its contribution, with nothing getting lost or smeared out in the general mush that I associate with more mainstream recordings. This recording shifted Beethoven's 5th from being way, way down in my list of 'symphonies I like', to somewhere in my top ten.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, of course we already have a place to extol HIP/PI Beethoven, so I won't (even though that is my preference). Since the subject of Kleiber v Karajan has come up here, I will merely note that given a choice of Beethoven 5 disks by them, I will choose the Kleiber every time. Whether someone's sense of rhythm is offended or not.

[DavidW]

I think that Kleiber is overhyped.  Now listen to Monteux or Walter, and you'll hear something terrific.

[Renfield]

Well, I think my choice in the Kleiber vs. Karajan comparison is both obvious and one I've already discussed more than I'm comfortable with, in the interests of not becoming a nuisance. Still, though I have respect for Kleiber Jr's as well, even Karajan's is one of a group of 5ths I cherish, rather than the 5th of choice - my relevant listing is actually in this very thread! (Plus the Nikisch, now that it's available.)

[ccar]

The ones I like less: Szell, almost claustrophobic, Klemperer with no dynamic, Gardiner, too superficial.  

There are at least 8 (AFAIK) versions of the Beethoven 5th conducted by Klemperer. Like many I am impressed by his astute gradual building of the tension and how the different voices of the orchestra are brilliantly exposed. But I am not always emotionally touched by his large sometimes too distant architectural view.
In spite of many imperfections in sound or execution, I was manytimes struck by an unexpected sense of freedom, directness, and even violence, Klemperer is able to draw in some of his live recordings. And for me this is particularly so when not in charge of his beautiful, but somehow domesticated, Philarmonia.
Perhaps one of the best examples of this (other?) Klemperer is the 1966 live concert recording with the Berliner Philarmoniker - Beethoven symphonies 4th and 5th (Testament). You may be surprised by the urge of the 81 year-old lion mastering the Karajanized BP. And how they do sound so differently.  

 

[Josquin des Prez]

I sense Kleiber is getting some unwarranted slack here, so i'm going to pick his version. Being a conformist is the new counter culture!

[Que]

I sense Kleiber is getting some unwarranted slack here, so i'm going to pick his version. Being a conformist is the new counter culture!

Be sure to get the right Kleiber:



Q

[MichaelRabin]

Re matters regarding rhythm - if one compares Huberman's (gypsy-like) version against Leonid Kogan's (with Silvestri) version of the Tchaikovsky VC - I know that I chose Kogan anyday.

On Beethoven's Sym 5, Karajan is more steady in his rhythmic delivery. I also have Kleiber (in fact both dad & son) - prefer Carlos to dad. Better sound and more fiery. CK was always in dad's shadow in most pieces that his dad conducted. So, its great that he manage to trump EK in this one.

[ccar]

Be sure to get the right Kleiber:
Q

Or one of his other brothers 5ths  



NBC 1948
Concertgebouw 1950
NDR 1951
NDR 1955
Kolner Rundfunk 1955

[Que]

Or one of his other brothers 5ths 

Dad's! 

Q

[ccar]

Dad's! 

Q

Or the son's other 5th ? 



Chicago 1978

[Opus106]

Or the son's other 5th ? 



Chicago 1978

I believe it was Carlos' US debut. The recordings just came up at SymphonyShare.