Are Ensembles Known for Their Rendition of this or that Composer?

[dave b]

I have been curious about this for some time and thought I would throw out this question.
E.g. Does the Berlin Philharmonic perform this or that composer better than it performs other composer's works? Does the Vienna Philharmonic tend to do a better job playing any particular composer?
Would the London Symphony render Vaughan Williams any better than ASMF?
Or are they all more or less equal, as ensembles, depending more on the performer for any variations in talent?
I ask this partly because of what I see in the way of recordings done by many ensembles, so when one attempts to choose Dvorak's Cello Concerto, does it make any difference at all if it is played by the London Philharmonic or the Berlin Philharmonic? Or is it strictly a matter of performers, one being more talented than the other?
Is it just random choice when you choose one orchestra over another, performing the same composer's work?
A wordy post, but I wanted to explain my reasons for the question, as well as just posing the question.

[dave b]

I mean when, never having heard the various ensembles perform a particular piece, you buy your first CD-----not, of course, when you have already heard two orchestras play the same piece and you have decided based on what you already heard.

[Lethevich]

I guess the most common examples of this kind are the Vienna Philharmonic with J Strauss and the Staatskapelle Dresden with R Strauss - the later does indeed sound rather special.

Your example of Vaughan Williams is good, but could be extended further to "would a British orchestra play it better than a continental European one?" - and the answer could probably be yes, unless the latter had reasonable rehearsal times for this music that it is unfamiliar with. But for standard rep the difference is negligable.

[Dana]

      I very rarely find that a native orchestra gives a better performance than another, mostly because when we're differentiating between a New York Philharmonic and a Berlin Philharmonic, we can expect a superb performance regardless of the work, I do find that I generally prefer Russian orchestras for Russian repertoire though, and it's entirely possible that the Vienna Philharmonic would enjoy a good Viennese waltz and play it with more gusto. Or they might be sick of them after 150+ years and play it with a little less pizzazz. Or they might just play the hell out of it due to pride. There are too many variables to say one way or the other.

      Now if you were to ask the same question of conductors, you'd find a lot more evidence for that - Sir Adrian Boult's life-long relationship with the works of Holst and Vaughan-Williams, Otto Klemperer & Wilhelm Furtwangler's famous interpretations of Brahms & Beethoven. It's especially true of modern music - a modern composer finds a conductor/ensemble who really 'gets' his music and is willing to champion it, and sticks with him for as long as he can.

And with all of that said, all other things being equal, I typically pick the native orchestra over the foreign orchestra just because

[DavidW]

Your example of Vaughan Williams is good, but could be extended further to "would a British orchestra play it better than a continental European one?" - and the answer could probably be yes, unless the latter had reasonable rehearsal times for this music that it is unfamiliar with. But for standard rep the difference is negligable.

Seriously?  Vaughan Williams, one of the most popular composers of the 20th century unfamiliar??  Give me a break!

Let me give a counterexample-- Berlioz.  He has been championed by Beecham, Davis and Munch.  The Munch/BSO recordings are some of the greatest out there, which is not exactly French musicians offering the best of their own music is it?

I've never heard a recording of Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony that was more driven than Previn/LSO.

Many of the Carter recordings are done by Brits instead of Americans, but they still sound great.

Face it classical music is international, it transcends these artificial nationalistic boundaries, and there is no intrinsic edge that musicians have for performing music from their own country.

[dave b]

To ask another aspect of that question, what is your criteria when choosing between various recordings, having never heard these ensembles perform a particular work? Mahler's symphonies, one cd is by the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and the other is performed by the Berlin Philharmoniker....no question but that most of us would choose the latter. So the choice, having never heard anyone play a certain piece of music played, is in part based on the reputation of the ensemble.
I guess there would be no other way of choosing, except if we had heard the piece played on a classical radio station.
All this is to say that I was curious about how the more experienced folks choose what CD to buy.

[DavidW]

To ask another aspect of that question, what is your criteria when choosing between various recordings, having never heard these ensembles perform a particular work? Mahler's symphonies, one cd is by the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and the other is peformed by the Berlin Philharmoniker....no question but that most of us would choose the latter. So the choice, having never heard anyone play a certain piece of music played, is in part based on the reputation of the ensemble.
I guess there would be no other way of choosing, except if we had heard the piece played on a classical radio station.
All this is to say that I was curious about how the more experienced folks choose what CD to buy.

I go by conductor instead of orchestra.  Recordings with different conductors and same orchestra sound very different, recordings with the same conductor and different orchestras only sound subtly different except when the conductor has changed his approach over the years.

These are criteria I use:
* rec'd by someone else on this forum
* by performers I already know and love
* receive good reviews (not from British magazines though)
* good price
* good sound
* if all else fails listen to samples

And honestly I start with the bargain price point, and if I can't find a recording that wasn't rec'd, receive good reviews and is in good sound I move onto the mid price point and so forth.  To get a sense of the reviews I usually look on arkivmusic which also shows you everything at once.

[DavidW]

To provide an example-- I watch Orlando and I'm like I think Christie might be a good conductor for Handel.  And then Dark Angel is like yup Christie is a great conductor in Handel's operas.  So I go to buy Alcina and I find a bargain box conducted by Christie.

But then I'm willing to pay a little bit more for Manze/Hogwood/AAM in Albinoni because I prefer that ensemble over the bargain priced traditional recordings.

That doesn't help you right now, but you'll see.  If you like Bernstein in Schumann, you might also like him in Brahms and Mahler and you would certainly trust his recordings more than unknown.  If he doesn't satisfy than you try out another one, or you ask people here.  Suppose Gurn rec'd you some recording, and you're like wow! that was awful and then Don recs you something, and you're like wow that was really awesome.  Then you can start trusting Don's recs over Gurn.  Eventually you'll have heard enough that you know which people to trust, and then later you'll be more likely to buy with confidence even if you don't receive any recs.

[Drasko]

Seriously?  Vaughan Williams, one of the most popular composers of the 20th century unfamiliar??  Give me a break!

Out of 99 recordings of Vaughan Williams' symphonies listed at arkiv 91 is by British orchestras, 8 by American orchestras (Stokowski mostly) and none by anyone else.
Programing of VW outside Britain is barely existing.

I've never heard a recording of Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony that was more driven than Previn/LSO.

That just means you haven't heard enough, Golovanov for instance.

[dave b]

Very interesting.

[DavidW]

That just means you haven't heard enough, Golovanov for instance.

See what I mean Dave?  Drasko recs Golovanov who IMO is a terrible conductor, and so now I know to simply dismiss Drasko's recs in the future.  That's how it works.

Now someone else might be like "oh really Drasko, I love that conductor!  Pray tell who do you like in Janacek?" and so it goes.

[dave b]

I see This is why the beginner stays in the background and listens and watches and learns

[DavidW]

I see This is why the beginner stays in the background and listens and watches and learns

No, no you're in the right place.  Your questions and threads have brought a cool draft to blow the dust off this stuffy forum and let some fresh air in.

[Brahmsian]

No, no you're in the right place.  Your questions and threads have brought a cool draft to blow the dust off this stuffy forum and let some fresh air in.

I wholeheartedly agree!    I also now use ArkivMusic.com or Allmusic.com for reviews.

[Drasko]

See what I mean Dave?  Drasko recs Golovanov who IMO is a terrible conductor, and so now I know to simply dismiss Drasko's recs in the future.  

Only thing I see is misreading, also a common practice on these boards. I made no recommendation or any statement of quality of any of those two. You claimed that you haven't heard more driven performance than Previn, and I said that you just haven't heard enough because Golovanov is more driven. That is pretty objective parameter.

[Lethevich]

Seriously?  Vaughan Williams, one of the most popular composers of the 20th century unfamiliar??  Give me a break!

Outside of the Anglosphere he is a quite minor figure, or at least one of several dozen no-lesser competitors. The amount of recordings of his music is disproportionate to his status because of the large percentage of the industry being located in the UK, and as a result catering to British interests.

[DavidW]

Only thing I see is misreading, also a common practice on these boards. I made no recommendation or any statement of quality of any of those two. You claimed that you haven't heard more driven performance than Previn, and I said that you just haven't heard enough because Golovanov is more driven. That is pretty objective parameter.

The fault is yours, it would be an easy mistake to make on my part.  You should have clarified what you meant if you didn't want anyone reading into your post praise of Golovanov's recording.

[DavidW]

Outside of the Anglosphere he is a quite minor figure, or at least one of several dozen no-lesser competitors. The amount of recordings of his music is disproportionate to his status because of the large percentage of the industry being located in the UK, and as a result catering to British interests.

Alright, alright you two, I'll admit I was mistaken in RVW.  

[Franco]

To me it is more prevalent for chamber ensembles rather than orchestras. 

In fact, I think, some string quartets were formed to specialize in one composer's work or repertory, e.g. the Shostakovich in his quartets and the Russian works in general or the Alban Berg in the Viennese school (both 1st and 2nd), not that either are the best, always, in that literature.

[Brahmsian]

I agree with the comments that it may depend more on the conductor, rather than the orchestra necessarily.

All of the musicians in the orchestra have to have fairly extensive music training, and would not even be hired to play in an orchestra if they weren't able to play very proficiently.