Sibelius' tricky 7th symphony

[Dana]

Once again, I want to stress that I'm not a "timings" nut. This subject came up in the Haydn SQ thread, where repeats tend towards deceptive timings. So I remembered how I went through this with Sibelius 7 many years ago (a one mvmt. piece/ no "repeats") and thought that this was the perfect piece to have this "interpretation" discussion with.

I DO know that "tension" can be achieved by different means, and I'm not trying to be difficult, but after listening to this Boult (19:22) I am just scratching my head at what a 25min Sibelius 7 must sound like?

      I feel the same way about Brahms; while there are plenty of different tempos at which one might conceivably take the work, I find that the faster ones work better, and like you, a particular recording swayed me - for me, it was Haitink's 1st Symphony. Nevertheless, I still find value in slower recordings, like Furtwangler and Klemperer, and I think that's one of the things that makes this music great - that the conductor can do almost no wrong, as long as he remains committed. Because of that, Bernstein's DG Sibelius is a good thing to hear - partially because of the interesting variety his interpretations offer, and partly to hear the incredible VPO at it's finest.

[eyeresist]

      People say that Bernstein's DG takes of Sibelius are incredibly slow and distorted, and they certainly are (especially his 2nd, and the end of his 5th), so every so often, I browse through Borders to see if I can find a better seventh symphony - I've come pretty close to buying Davis' LSO Live, and Berglund's Seraphim recordings, but every time I get close, I just end up wondering why I need to replace a great recording?

I guess an "in with the new/out with the old" approach is one way to limit space requirements, but you are probably the only forumite to do so!

[DavidW]

I guess an "in with the new/out with the old" approach is one way to limit space requirements, but you are probably the only forumite to do so!

Well he might still be a student, when I was a student on a meager stipend I did that too so I could be able to even more cds, if I didn't like what I had or I was add (pretty much both).

[snyprrr]

I totally "do" the trade in/up.

No need for three versions of "X" unless the interpretations are at opposite poles (and warrant it).

Of course my latest attitude has been the complete opposite!

[DavidW]

It makes sense, you're going through one of those massive acquiring phases.  You're bound to find a bunch later on you want to sell or trade off.

[snyprrr]

That usually happens 10secs.-3mins. after putting said new cd into player, haha!

But no, that's my whole point. I can only afford to get stuff I will keep. I spent so much money trying to get rid of a certain cd on Ebay that it would have been better to just shred it (finally sold it for $1 at a local store- for the jewel case no doubt).

Why do you think I ask sooo many questions?

I accidentally got a Ned Rorem cd. You should have seen me THAT day, haha!!!

anyhow...SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7, SIBELIUS 7

[DavidW]

If you start a penny auction on ebay it will usually end at a price you want.  My penny auctions usually ended up with me getting $5-20 for a cd.  You could also use amazon marketplace.  And don't forget you can also use this forum, there is a whole board for it.

[Xenophanes]

I DO know that "tension" can be achieved by different means, and I'm not trying to be difficult, but after listening to this Boult (19:22) I am just scratching my head at what a 25min Sibelius 7 must sound like?

Well, there's this one at 24:57, but it has some applause at the end.  Georg Tintner, Symphony Nova Scotia, Naxos 8.557238.  It's a fairly obscure chamber orchestra but it's really very good indeed and the sound quality is excellent.

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557238

[Dana]

I guess an "in with the new/out with the old" approach is one way to limit space requirements, but you are probably the only forumite to do so!

      I used to collect music like a pack rat (the most I had was 5 Beethoven 9s and 4 Mendelssohn VCs), but I'm trying to be less glutonous I now only go for a lot of different copies of stuff when there's an truly incredible range of interpretation, like the Mendelssohn concerto, or the Bach solo instrumental works.

[Sergeant Rock]

I have always maintained that Sibelius' 7 is the one piece of music, for me, that has to be played as quickly as possible...

Found one you should like then: a live recording by Szell and his Clevelanders, part of this box:



Szell brings it in in a mere 19 minutes six seconds. Wins the race not by a nose but by several lengths 

Sarge

[mjwal]

All these performances being mentioned here seem like snooze-fests to me - why, I'm just listening to a performance that takes 16:19, so there! I must admit that during the first half I occasionally think that certain expressive qualities are being underplayed (though then again, it might be the lack of definition & bite in the - radio? - recording; but then it develops tremendous momentum, it has a direct impact on my nervous system like some Xenakis! - Van Kempen, I don't know when - mid-50s? I downloaded it for free (rapidshare) via Neil's Historical Recordings Corner on the www. Makes Colin Davis seem a rather dull chap (I've got that LSO-Live, so so.). Another performance that really rings my bell is Carl von Garaguly with the Dresden PO on Berlin Classics, but I haven't got it here in Berlin so can't say how long - it's definitely not as fast as this, but just as powerful as Mravinsky, without the trombone vibrato...

[Drasko]

All these performances being mentioned here seem like snooze-fests to me - why, I'm just listening to a performance that takes 16:19, so there! I must admit that during the first half I occasionally think that certain expressive qualities are being underplayed (though then again, it might be the lack of definition & bite in the - radio? - recording; but then it develops tremendous momentum, it has a direct impact on my nervous system like some Xenakis! - Van Kempen, I don't know when - mid-50s? I downloaded it for free (rapidshare) via Neil's Historical Recordings Corner on the www. Makes Colin Davis seem a rather dull chap (I've got that LSO-Live, so so.). Another performance that really rings my bell is Carl von Garaguly with the Dresden PO on Berlin Classics, but I haven't got it here in Berlin so can't say how long - it's definitely not as fast as this, but just as powerful as Mravinsky, without the trombone vibrato...

Thanks for the tip! Interesting performance. I've just downloaded it and listening as I type, he sure is fast, but yes, gains him a lots of momentum. Recording is from May 11, 1950, Hilversum Radio Filharmonisch Orkest. Available here:
http://nealshistoricalcorner.blogspot.com/search/label/Van%20Kempen

[Sergeant Rock]

All these performances being mentioned here seem like snooze-fests to me - why, I'm just listening to a performance that takes 16:19, so there!

And we have a new winner!

Available here:
http://nealshistoricalcorner.blogspot.com/search/label/Van%20Kempen

Thanks for the link.

Sarge

[Mandryka]

My own favourite is Karajan's first -- with the Philharmonia.

There's some story about Sibelius saying he liked it.

Anyway, I like it. And that's what matters .

To me.

PS -- Jarvi's pretty good too.

Jarvi kind of makes it all flow nice.

[snyprrr]

All these performances being mentioned here seem like snooze-fests to me - why, I'm just listening to a performance that takes 16:19, so there! I must admit that during the first half I occasionally think that certain expressive qualities are being underplayed (though then again, it might be the lack of definition & bite in the - radio? - recording; but then it develops tremendous momentum, it has a direct impact on my nervous system like some Xenakis! - Van Kempen, I don't know when - mid-50s? I downloaded it for free (rapidshare) via Neil's Historical Recordings Corner on the www. Makes Colin Davis seem a rather dull chap (I've got that LSO-Live, so so.). Another performance that really rings my bell is Carl von Garaguly with the Dresden PO on Berlin Classics, but I haven't got it here in Berlin so can't say how long - it's definitely not as fast as this, but just as powerful as Mravinsky, without the trombone vibrato...

16:19

Wow!, I'll have to somehow get that (on a different computer). I can't even imagine...ha! That "tempest" section, where the unison starts whirrrling about, THAT must be pretty intense.

I'm trying to hear it in my head... makes sense, but yea, pretty fast, but I can see it working tremendously. Wow!

[mahler10th]

IN the hands of a good conductor, Sibelius 7 is a top mind-blender no matter what the tempo. 
I think the real acid test of the 7th comes right at the very end, where huge dissonant brasses and strings announce the full conclusion of the work.  It is by far one of the most AWESOME symphonic endings, and one of the most meaningful.  Its the performances of this ending which make the biggest impression on me.
Again, the speed of the ending is irrelevant, but only in so much as it fits the context the conductor has set throughout the performance.  I like to hear the final bars loud and slow, but when for example Berglund is at the helm of Sibelius 7, the ending is more succinct and less langorous, much quicker, but it's FITTING as a conclusion because that's the way Berglund knitted it, and no less glorious.  Unlike Bernstein or Segerstam at the other end of the scale, who are knitting big wooly jumpers. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Another performance that really rings my bell is Carl von Garaguly with the Dresden PO on Berlin Classics, but I haven't got it here in Berlin so can't say how long - it's definitely not as fast as this, but just as powerful as Mravinsky, without the trombone vibrato...

I found a copy cheap at Amazon. It arrived today.



Yes, this is another performance Snyprrr should investigate. Garaguly brings it in under 20 minutes (19:39 according to the booklet; 19:34 according to my computer).

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Unlike Bernstein or Segerstam at the other end of the scale, who are knitting big wooly jumpers. 

But so comfy...especially when listening in the winter months 

Sarge

[snyprrr]

Interesting,... all.

GAME: what is/are the perfect, non-Sibelius disc mate (s)  for this symphony?

[TheGSMoeller]

It just so happens that I've listened to several different 7ths today, and then I come across this thread that is over 10 years old!

Here they are...

Karajan/BPO -
Davis/LSO - 2004
Davis/BSO
Vanska/LahtiSO
Berglund/BSO

The Berglund, and Davis/BSO were first time listens. And I gave the Karajan another try,  I'm ready to turn in my GMG pass for this one, but Ive never warmed up to Karajan's Sibelius performances, I have a few reasons but we can save that for another time. 

I've always leaned more towards the over-dramatics of Bernstein, or Segerstam, with the Blomstedt and the Barbirolli/Halle cycles always close by for a spin. But lately I've been really enjoyed the more taut Vanska performances, and I tend to like the Lahti over Minnesota, which I won't do a good job of telling why, only that the Lahti feels more passionate and little more edge to the sound.

And I see it's been discussed a little bit in this thread, but the final two bars of the symphony, and how they are interpreted, are so important to me and how I view a performance. And as you can see, my favorites at the moment almost all treat it differently, but if it matches the tone of the previous 20 minutes then I'm for it no matter how long the final chord is held.