Music written in "inappropriate" keys ...

[Scarpia]

When I have more time I will dig out the books I have that may address this and more fully research this issue since it is one I am interested in, but here's what I think based solely on my general knowledge:

1. I find it questionable that Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven - the leading musical lights of their respective generations - would compose using an antiquated temperment when  equal temperment was know for at least one century, and widely used for decades. 

2. One aspect of the music of the Classical period was its transposition to far removed keys from the tonic, and composers like Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven needed a system of equal temperament in order to fully utilize this form of composition.  I do not believe they would voluntarily hamper themselves with a temperment that inhibited their use of all keys.

3. And finally, I think the issue of temperament has been used by the PI camp to further distinquish their recordings, and performers specializing in this kind of approach have exaggerated the possiblity of Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven did not use equal temperament.

But, I could be wrong.

EDIT: Since I was recently re-reading Charles Rosen's book, and was drawing on that for much of what I've posted here - I did check, and found that he writes this:

Here's a Google book link, if it works properly, to that page.

The issue will be impossible to resolve, since at the time there was no way to accurately measure the frequency of a note and hence there are no definitive records of how instruments were tuned.  However, people were writing scientific papers to the Royal Society about how to tune a piano as late as 1800, so it doesn't strike me as plausible that true equal temperament was taken for granted during Mozart's time.  By Beethoven's time there seems to be agreement that equal temperament was common.

The comment about string quartets strikes me as a red herring.  Bowed instruments have infinitely variable pitch, so the most natural thing would be for players to adjust for "just" intonation in the key they happen to be playing in. 

[Gurn Blanston]

To put a definition to it, what we are actually talking about here is 'temperament', not 'pitch'. Just sayin'.

When I have questions about issues like this, I first go to Dolmetsch online. Here is their fascinating page on temperament.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm#histtemps

Tuning #12 is 'equal temperament', Franco's candidate. If you give it a thorough reading, you will note that the swing to this tuning came late in the 18th and early 19th centuries, when composers began exploring more remote keys. Even though it was finally admitted to be superior, it still took over a century from that time to become the standard tuning.

This website should be bookmarked by all of us who don't already know all this stuff off the tops of our heads. It is not only handy for looking stuff up and settling questions, but it is also interesting to just browse around it.

[Scarpia]

To put a definition to it, what we are actually talking about here is 'temperament', not 'pitch'. Just sayin'.

When I have questions about issues like this, I first go to Dolmetsch online. Here is their fascinating page on temperament.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm#histtemps

Tuning #12 is 'equal temperament', Franco's candidate. If you give it a thorough reading, you will note that the swing to this tuning came late in the 18th and early 19th centuries, when composers began exploring more remote keys. Even though it was finally admitted to be superior, it still took over a century from that time to become the standard tuning.

This website should be bookmarked by all of us who don't already know all this stuff off the tops of our heads. It is not only handy for looking stuff up and settling questions, but it is also interesting to just browse around it.

Ah, those were the days, when you could get a scientific publication by calculating the 12th root of 2.      

[Gurn Blanston]

Ah, those were the days, when you could get a scientific publication by calculating the 12th root of 2.   

Fair to say that wouldn't get you too far down the road to your Nobel Prize in Physics in 2010...

[Chaszz]

Brahms' Third Symphony is most definitely not "pastoral"...

I disagree. Pastoral is defined in several places as pertaining to rural life and environment. It is not related to cheeriness. The Third Symphony has a mixture of beauty, wistfulness and longing that is found in some of Brahms' works. However, it is, for me at least, definitely pastoral, evoking woods, sky, fields, paths and other rural elements, with a lovely autumnal orchestral coloring.

I know that some have difficulty hearing landscape in Brahms' symphonies, having initiated a topic on this very subject here not long ago. However, there are those of us who do hear this element in his work, and it seems to me our opinions are as valid as the others.

[Dax]

A different tangent if that's OK.

G# minor. Not a common key, although - er - Alkan seems rather fond of it
(eg., first movement of the Concerto, Morituri te salutant, Les diablotins and last movement of the Grande sonate. Which other composers are and why?

[Scarpia]

I disagree. Pastoral is defined in several places as pertaining to rural life and environment. It is not related to cheeriness. The Third Symphony has a mixture of beauty, wistfulness and longing that is found in some of Brahms' works. However, it is, for me at least, definitely pastoral, evoking woods, sky, fields, paths and other rural elements, with a lovely autumnal orchestral coloring.

I know that some have difficulty hearing landscape in Brahms' symphonies, having initiated a topic on this very subject here not long ago. However, there are those of us who do hear this element in his work, and it seems to me our opinions are as valid as the others.

Pastoral is perhaps the last word I would ever apply to Brahms 3.

[Brian]

Pastoral is perhaps the last word I would ever apply to Brahms 3.

Even after "squeegee"? 

[Scarpia]

Even after "squeegee"? 

"sqeegee" is at least neutral.  "Pastoral" is the opposite of my impression.   

[Franco]

To put a definition to it, what we are actually talking about here is 'temperament', not 'pitch'. Just sayin'.

Both can effect the way a key will sound.  When a piano is tuned to A=422 (Mozart's preference) it sounds warmer than the same piano tuned A=440.  Temperament, whether tuned to A440 or A422 will also effect the character of keys.

When I have questions about issues like this, I first go to Dolmetsch online. Here is their fascinating page on temperament.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm#histtemps

Tuning #12 is 'equal temperament', Franco's candidate. If you give it a thorough reading, you will note that the swing to this tuning came late in the 18th and early 19th centuries, when composers began exploring more remote keys. Even though it was finally admitted to be superior, it still took over a century from that time to become the standard tuning.

This website should be bookmarked by all of us who don't already know all this stuff off the tops of our heads. It is not only handy for looking stuff up and settling questions, but it is also interesting to just browse around it.

Late 18th century, early 19th century is the Classical period, and I am comfortable accepting Charles Rosen's statement that all the music of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven was written with the system of equal temperament in mind, even for string quartet - meaning that despite the SQ not being effected by these issues, still the manner of HMB's composition depended upon ET.  According to Rosen, their music is best played on an instrument utilizing equal temperament, and to the extent they expected their music to be widely performed, they expected ET to be available, and it can be assumed this was not an unreasonable expectation. 

What criteria is used to mark the moment when ET become "standard", is open to discussion, but the point I have always been interested in was what Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were using, and writing for.

[jochanaan]

...G# minor. Not a common key, although - er - Alkan seems rather fond of it...

So was Janacek; viz. the Suite from The Cunning Little Vixen and the Sinfonietta, where many key moments and movements are in that key.

[Chaszz]

Pastoral is perhaps the last word I would ever apply to Brahms 3.

It is the first word I would apply to it, the first movement evoking in my mind an autumn scene of a large forest of oak trees with brown leaves on its floor, a large tree at front left most prominent, and a blue sky with clouds above the forest and behind it. A path at lower center left extends into the forest, inviting the traveler on the musical journey which continues thru the work. Of course I am not saying that Brahms created this specific scene, only that the music suggests it to me and my mind completes it. I never have such visions with the music of say, Bach. It may be germane to note that Brahms loved to walk in the country and was sometimes struck with musical ideas while doing so. Even if consciously he was not creating landscape music, unconsciously he could have been doing just that, and certain listeners pick it up. Additionally, his orchestrations are evocative of Romantic feelings of landscape in very similar ways to contemporaries who WERE consciously creating landscape music, whether a friend and protege like Dvorak or a rival like Wagner. To my mind, Brahms is no more a purely formal, non-imagistic composer than he is a purely classical non-Romantic composer. He has elements of landscape, I believe, almost to the same extent he has Romanticism threaded thru his classicizing music. 

.

[Scarpia]

It is the first word I would apply to it, the first movement evoking in my mind an autumn scene of a large forest of oak trees with brown leaves on its floor, a large tree at front left most prominent, and a blue sky with clouds above the forest and behind it. A path at lower center left extends into the forest, inviting the traveler on the musical journey which continues thru the work. Of course I am not saying that Brahms created this specific scene, only that the music suggests it to me and my mind completes it. I never have such visions with the music of say, Bach. It may be germane to note that Brahms loved to walk in the country and was sometimes struck with musical ideas while doing so. Even if consciously he was not creating landscape music, unconsciously he could have been doing just that, and certain listeners pick it up. Additionally, his orchestrations are evocative of Romantic feelings of landscape in very similar ways to contemporaries who WERE consciously creating landscape music, whether a friend and protege like Dvorak or a rival like Wagner. To my mind, Brahms is no more a purely formal, non-imagistic composer than he is a purely classical non-Romantic composer. He has elements of landscape, I believe, almost to the same extent he has Romanticism threaded thru his classicizing music. 

.

There is no basis for contradicting your impression.  However, despite the fact that I also do not regard Brahms' music as "formal" or lacking in extra-musical inspiration, I do not find that his music suggests visual imagery or landscapes in particular.   I find in it Brahms' music a suggestion of a succession of emotional states, or a sort of abstract drama.

[Chaszz]

There is no basis for contradicting your impression.  However, despite the fact that I also do not regard Brahms' music as "formal" or lacking in extra-musical inspiration, I do not find that his music suggests visual imagery or landscapes in particular.   I find in it Brahms' music a suggestion of a succession of emotional states, or a sort of abstract drama.

1. What other composer do you find similar to Brahms in this way (abstract drama)?

2. And, what extra-musical inspiration, if any, do you find actually expressed or evident in Brahms' music?

[jochanaan]

...Of course I am not saying that Brahms created this specific scene, only that the music suggests it to me and my mind completes it...

You're not the only one.  Clara Schumann called this symphony "a forest idyll" and apparently wrote out a program for it.  (Information from Harold C. Schonberg, The Great Conductors.)

[Chaszz]

You're not the only one.  Clara Schumann called this symphony "a forest idyll" and apparently wrote out a program for it.  (Information from Harold C. Schonberg, The Great Conductors.)

Thank you. As my recent poll found only a minority of Brahms listeners (3 out of 10, or thereabouts ,I think it was) hear landscape in Brahms' symphonies, I am somewhat in need of support. And certainly, when it comes to Brahms, having support from Clara Schumann is about as good as it gets !

[jochanaan]

...And certainly, when it comes to Brahms, having support from Clara Schumann is about as good as it gets !

Indeed.  She certainly supported Johannes.

[Scarpia]

1. What other composer do you find similar to Brahms in this way (abstract drama)?

This is how I tend to perceive most "absolute" classical music of the Romantic era, from late Mozart through Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, through Brahms.   Of course there are exceptions, Beethoven's 6th is overtly pictorial.  Brahms is known to have found beautiful natural settings conducive to composition, but that does not  imply that his music is attempt to paint visual imagery.  However I don't claim my approach is more than personal.

[greg]

Thank you. As my recent poll found only a minority of Brahms listeners (3 out of 10, or thereabouts ,I think it was) hear landscape in Brahms' symphonies, I am somewhat in need of support. And certainly, when it comes to Brahms, having support from Clara Schumann is about as good as it gets !

Only 3 out of 10? 
Honestly, I can't shake imagery out of my mind when it comes to most of Brahms- I'd say he actually paints pictures in my mind than any other composer.

[alkan]

Well, this thread seems to have morphed from its original title into some kind of Brahms imagery discussion 

Some earlier posts gave examples of sad or gloomy music written in major keys.
Does anyone have any examples of happy music written in minor keys, especially traditionally tragic ones such as G minor?