Great moments in counterpoint

[Chaszz]

The Elements of Music threads brought counterpoint and polyphony to my mind. Not an element, perhaps, but pretty close to one, and pretty close to my favorite. I seem to get more of a charge by hearing two or more lines play against each other, or by one line coming in just as another one is pausing or ending, especially at climactic moments, than anything else in music. A great example of this (not where one would expect to find one, such as Bach or New Orleans jazz) is in the first movement of the Sibelius Violin Concerto, where at one point for about six measures the violin is ending a sequence while the orchestra is beginning and proceeding with the next sequence behind it at the same time. Dynamite!

Any favorites, even if by a usually homophonic composer (I can think of several great instances of polyphony in the usually homophonic Mozart and Beethoven)  ?

[Josquin des Prez]

New Orleans counterpoint is no where near in the same league as Bach. I know you guys like to be all PC and stuff but lets not get carried away too much.

Ignoring the Renaissance for a moment, my favored composers of polyphony are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven in his late works, Chopin (yes, Chopin), Brahms, Faure (yes, Faure), Stravinsky, Bartok, Webern and Kapustin. In short, i like counterpoint that blends naturally with the other elements of the music without sounding forced or didactic.

[knight66]

Well, I am prompted into a little journey with this topic.

In Mozart there is the final movement of the Jupiter Symphony, counterpoint in spades. It sets in nicely here within 35 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRUlzJn8UeU

Beethoven's Grosse Fugue. It starts to show its colours about 1.50 here. The piece grabs you by the shirt front and for three minutes never lets you go, it pours out a torrent of complex sound. Then suddenly at 4.50, he renews the ideas and builds a new piece of counterpoint that more echoes Bach. Protean and exceptionally demanding music, Beethoven really pushes the form.

He also used it in the Missa Solemnis to stupendous cumulative effect. Beethoven had already composed the smaller Mass in C for Prince Esterhazy; who did not like it and amongst other things claimed it lacked a decent fugue. That may in part be why the subsequent Missa Solemnis is so strong in the form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vcRFVh7KNQ

Elsewhere we have had a thread this week on the Berlioz Requiem, it opens with a fugue. You are well into it by 2.20 here. I say well, though the choir here sounds somewhat ill initially.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5qDlkjHdb4&feature=PlayList&p=E22BA62BB208EAE1&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=8

Wagner's Meistersingers Overture contains some of my favourite counterpoint. Wagner, the revolutionary individualist; post the tonal experimentation with Tristan, suddenly looks back in form and in sound to that time when melody was not so very dominant and was set within almost competing lines in a corporacy.

He introduces the elements, which seem disparate, they will be heard later on in the opera itself, then by the end of the overture he has welded them together in a complexity of texture. By minute eight you are getting the cumulative effect. He then closes the circle by bringing back the opening melody strongly at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9xo4xIlJfA

But, even more elevated, in the same opera, Wagner uses the technique in the ecstatic final act quintet. Here independent lines of thought are literally given voice in a very traditional device. We were discussing this piece only a few days ago and several versions were especially loved...here is one of the best. By 2.50 the strands are being built up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gykYRGYaDbY&feature=PlayList&p=83F5318C9F02201C&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=26

Finally for my little run through....into the 20th Century, Bartok sets up a fugue right at the start of the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdubIhGqLY

Stravinsky had a little look atthe form in his Symphony of Psalms, Shostakovitch used the fugue in homage to Bach and there is some huge half hour fugue in a modern chamber piece that is about two hours long, but I can't remember the composer, I have not ever heard that one.

So, indications that counterpoint survived its comparative overshadowing during the Romantic period. Though perhaps others can highlight whether it is still in any use at the cutting edge of new music.

Mike

[knight66]

Ignoring the Renaissance for a moment, my favored composers of polyphony are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven in his late works, Chopin (yes, Chopin), Brahms, Faure (yes, Faure), Stravinsky, Bartok, Webern and Kapustin. In short, i like counterpoint that blends naturally with the other elements of the music without sounding forced or didactic.

There are folk here who would not be able to understand what is being discussed. How about pinpointing a couple of examples. It is also more interesting than just listing composers. Any chance you could oblige?

Mike

[david johnson]

New Orleans counterpoint is no where near in the same league as Bach. I know you guys like to be all PC and stuff but lets not get carried away too much.

Nothing p/c about it.  It was that way long before p/c was invented.

[Dax]

Leopold Godowsky's Johann Strauss transcriptions convince one that any two melodies can somehow be combined. Or at least that's how I was persuaded.

[Josquin des Prez]

Nothing p/c about it.  It was that way long before p/c was invented.

Yes, relativism has a long infamous history in the west. I even saw somebody here in this very forum claim that Jimi Hendrix's contrapuntal skills were almost as good as those of Bach. For real. I'd really like to know what goes in the minds of those people.

[rappy]

IMO the greatest, most creative and poetic use of counterpoint you can find in Ein Heldenleben by R. Strauss.
You could mention any page of the score, so here's an example:

http://www.bernardynet.de/heldenleben.png

-> sounds like this:

http://www.bernardynet.de/heldenleben.mp3

[knight66]

Yes, relativism has a long infamous history in the west. I even saw somebody here in this very forum claim that Jimi Hendrix's contrapuntal skills were almost as good as those of Bach. For real. I'd really like to know what goes in the minds of those people.

Yes, I get it...your usual, get bogged down in the politics of music, but never mind telling us about the actual music. How about some examples of counterpoint? Do you actually know how to identify it?

Mike

[Chaszz]

New Orleans counterpoint is no where near in the same league as Bach. I know you guys like to be all PC and stuff but lets not get carried away too much...

I will place the final polyphonic choruses of Louis Armstrong's 1927 'Potato Head Blues,' and Jelly Roll Morton's Red Hot Peppers' 1926 'Original Jelly Roll Blues' up there with just about anything. Nothing whatever to do with political correctness, simply great and immortal music. Now if you don't agree with the quality judgment that's your prerogative. But it's got absolutely nothing to do with PC. I was listening to Bach, as well as Armstrong and Morton, fifty-five years ago and that's when I first formed these opinions; long, long before PC.

[Chaszz]

Anyway,my own favorite piece of counterpoint is the final 6-part fugue in Bach's Musical Offering. Followed by the last movement of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony.

[greg]

The Bartok- excellent recommendation! Not to mention that subject of the fugue alternates complex time signatures all by itself! 


A couple of great moments:

(starting at 4:00, if you could only hear the bass line, too... i don't know why, but on most recordings or youtube the bass line, which is EXTREMELY important is played to soft to even hear)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/2Ny31_1Lul4&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/zwkzf-KUNPM

[CRCulver]

My favourite moment of 20th century counterpoint is that wild fugue in the fourth movement of Boulez's Piano Sonata No. 2.

[jowcol]

I even saw somebody here in this very forum claim that Jimi Hendrix's contrapuntal skills were almost as good as those of Bach. For real. I'd really like to know what goes in the minds of those people.

Perhaps those people like to mess with the minds of those who's buttons are easily pushed.

Back on topic-

I adore Bach's organ works, and particularly enjoy the Fugue in the Great Fantasia and Fugue in G Minor , as well as the Passacaglia and Fugue. 


I'm also a huge fan of the first movement Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste by Bartok.  Not only is it a totally "kickass" fugue, but it has a palindromic structure.  An interesting analysis (at first glance, anyway) is here:

http://solomonsmusic.net/diss7.htm


Although, could it be possible that the greatest of the <button>Great Masters</button> and probably the most sublime  example of <button>Genius</button> in counterpoint to be found in <button>Western Civilization</button> , be the haunting fugue in the epic composition 1983, A Merman I Should Turn to Be by Jimi Hendrix on his Electric Ladyland album?   

[Josquin des Prez]

Although, could it be possible that the greatest of the <button>Great Masters</button> and probably the most sublime  example of <button>Genius</button> in counterpoint to be found in <button>Western Civilization</button> , be the haunting fugue in the epic composition 1983, A Merman I Should Turn to Be by Jimi Hendrix on his Electric Ladyland album?

Possibly one of Hendrix most pretentious, worthless songs. And no notable examples of counterpoint in there either.

[Cato]

Bruckner's symphonies offer great examples, especially the Finales to Symphonies V and VIII.

[Scarpia]

Was just listening to some portions of the WTC Bk I and was very impressed with the fugue in B major (second to last in the set).  It occurred to me that the contrapuntal motif developed in the episodes of this fugue are very similar to those developed in the Brandenburg Concerto No 1, first movement.

[jowcol]

Possibly one of Hendrix most pretentious, worthless songs. And no notable examples of counterpoint in there either.

Well played! 

(although I love the point where they return to the main riff...)

[Josquin des Prez]

At any rate, i propose that Kapustin is one of the greatest writers of polyphony of modern times. Here's a great example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCecdE9AXjs&feature=related

There are so many themes running in this piece, its almost Bach-like in scope. I don't have access to my hard drive right now, but i'll see if i can upload something out of his book of prelude and fugues. Another great example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4KLy-CQMn4&feature=related

Moar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFUGvjRPPRk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gi3EsgQn10&feature=related

[Dax]

Many thanks for posting those. I'd only previously heard Kapustin played by others: he's a really impressive pianist with bullet-proof rhythm. His piano layout is highly skilled and the music is wildly exciting but (I find) only in small doses: probably because , to me at least, he seems to cover the same bases time and time again. Polyphony isn't the focus of attention so much as gaps that have to be constantly filled - I do long for some holes in the texture.