Comparing Composers

[Saul]

Yes I do! You can read about Stravinsky telling Proust how much he hates Beethoven in Book of Musical Anecdotes

Stravinsky is one of my favorite composers and one of my heros!  And yes to me Stravinsky is one of the greatest composers of all time.   

Stravinsky doesnt reach Beethoven's toes.
I know that people shouldnt post their performances outside the performing section, but please I just had to post this!

I play his music anyday, and Stravinsky is anything but a great composer.

http://www.youtube.com/v/D9LrOVfMXNY

[Mirror Image]

Stravinsky doesnt reach Beethoven's toes.

Stravinsky is anything but a great composer.

Why would you say that Stravinsky isn't a great composer when he's acknowledged as one of the greatest of the 20th Century? Do I really have to tell you about the importance of "The Rite of Spring"? While it may be said that Stravinsky's success rests on three ballets: "The Firebird," "Petrushka," and "The Rite of Spring," it should be noted that Stravinsky brought about a change in music. Everybody knows the story of the "Rite" premiere, but imagine having that kind of reaction and it's just the premiere? While it may have been a negative reaction at that time, the influence of this work still lingers heavily into our present time. But the question is does influence actually translate to greatness? I think in Stravinsky's case it does.

[Teresa]

Even Wagner didn't let his Anti Semitism blur reality when it came to greatness in music, this famous passage heard by all serious music lovers was made by non other then Richard Wagner on Mendelssohn:

"The Greatest specifically musical genius the world has had since Mozart".

I tried to find that quote but was unsuccessful, can you please provide a link?

Here is what I found that Wagner said about Mendelssohn:

"Richard Wagner, great composer but despicable human being, saw Mendelssohn as one of his major rivals. Everyone held up Mendelssohn as embodying the highest ideals of culture in Germany, a level of esteem that Wagner desperately coveted. For Wagner, it was not a question of simply criticizing a colleague. He wanted to destroy Mendelssohn.

To that end, three years after Mendelssohn's death, Wagner wrote one of the most infamous publications in German history — or musical history, for that matter: "Das Judenthum in Musik" ("Judaism in Music") A vicious appeal to antisemitism, it proposed that Jews were parasites and incapable of expressing the sublimities of the German soul. Specifically naming Mendelssohn, Wagner claimed that what Jews produced was "artificial" and "imitative" culture. In contrast, he promoted his own appeals to unreason as "authentic." Wagner concluded there should be what he called an "Untergang" of Jews in general. (The word is ambiguous, meaning "decline" and also "destruction.") So when Mendelssohn had the misfortune to die young, his music was left to fend for itself against the Untergang smear campaign that festered into the following century and resurfaces regularly to this day."
http://www.forward.com/articles/15115/

"In the racial outlook of Richard Wagner we are confronted with concepts of "Volk," language, "Kultur," anti-Christianity, anti-Semitism, anti-Mendelssohnism, that resolve themselves into one complex, with reciprocal interrelationships all oriented around music, yet extending into every aspect of life, German life in particular."
http://www.nazi.org.uk/wagner-nazism.htm

If anyone wants to prove to me that he or she has no knowledge or understanding of classical music then let them say  that Mendelssohn, Mozart or Beethoven or Bach were not great composers, you don't need to say anything else, this will be just enough.

I am totally and completely INSULTED by your insensitive comment that one cannot LOVE classical music without thinking the four composers you mentioned are great.  I SAY HOGWASH! in my 40 years of enjoying classical music none of those you listed I would consider great composers.  They range from bad to competent. 

I love CLASSICAL MUSIC DEARLY and own works by 319 composers!  Not only do I understand classical music, have studied, learned orchestration and writing for the effective range of all orchestral instruments.   I am a musician and a composer, admittedly a poor one. 

Here are the greatest composers I've ever heard:

ARNOLD, MALCOLM (1921-
BARBER, SAMUEL (1910-1981)
BERLIOZ, HECTOR (1803-1869)
BERNSTEIN, LEONARD (1918-1990)
BIZET, GEORGES (1838-1875)
BORODIN, ALEXANDER (1833-1887)
BRITTEN, BENJAMIN (1913-1976)
CHABRIER, EMMANUEL (1841-1894)
CHADWICK, GEORGE (1854-1931)
CHIHARA, PAUL (1938-
COPLAND, AARON (1900-1990)
DEBUSSY, CLAUDE (1862-1918)
DUKAS, PAUL (1865-1935)
DVORÁK, ANTONÍN (1841-1904)
FALLA, MANUEL DE (1876-1946)
GERSHWIN, GEORGE (1898-1937)
GOULD, MORTON (1913-1996)
GOUNOD, CHARLES (1818-1893)
GRIEG, EDVARD (1843-1907)
GROFÉ, FERDE (1892-1972)
HOLST, GUSTAV (1874-1934)
IBERT, JACQUES (1890-1962)
IPPOLITOV-IVANOV, MIKHAIL (1859-1935)
JANÁÇEK, LEO· (1854-1928)
KABALEVSKY, DMITRI (1904-1987)
KHACHATURIAN, ARAM (1903-1978)
KODÁLY, ZOLTÁN (1882-1967)
LISZT, FRANZ (1811-1886)
LLOYD, GEORGE (1913-1998)
MAHLER, GUSTAV (1860-1911)
MASSENET, JULES (1842-1912)
MEIJ, JOHAN DE (1953-
MENOTTI, GIAN CARLO (1911-
MILHAUD, DARIUS (1892-1974)
MINKUS, LEON (1826-1917)
MUSSORGSKY, MODEST (1839-1881)
NELHYBEL, VACLAV (1919-1996)
NIELSEN, CARL (1865-1931)
PISTON, WALTER (1894-1976)
PROKOFIEV, SERGEI (1891-1953)
RACHMANINOV, SERGEI (1873-1943)
RAVEL, MAURICE (1875-1937)
REED, HERBERT OWEN (1910-
RESPIGHI, OTTORINO (1879-1936)
RIMSKY-KORSAKOV, NIKOLAI (1844-1908)
RODRIGO, JOAQUÍN (1902-1999)
ROGERS, BERNARD (1893-
ROSSINI, GIOACCHINO (1792-1868)
RUSSO, WILLIAM (1928-
SAINT-SAËNS, CAMILLE (1835-1921)
SATIE, ERIK (1866-1925)
SHOSTAKOVICH, DMITRI (1906-1975)
SIBELIUS, JEAN (1865-1957)
SMETANA, BEDRICH (1824-1884)
STRAUSS, RICHARD (1864-1949)
STRAVINSKY, IGOR (1882-1971)
SUPPÉ, FRANZ VON (1819-1895)
TCHAIKOVSKY, PETER ILYICH (1840-1893)
THOMSON, VIRGIL (1896-1989)
TURINA, JOAQUÍN (1882-1949)
VAUGHAN WILLIAMS, RALPH (1872-1958)
VILLA-LOBOS, HEITOR (1887-1959)
WAGNER, RICHARD (1813-1883)
WALTON, WILLIAM (1902-1983)
WEILL, KURT (1900-1950)
WILLS, ARTHUR (1926-

These are the composer's I feel are Great composers, I can also make a list of over a hundred composers I feel are good composers.  And lists of fair, poor and bad composers, such lists are my personal opinion and what someone else considers Great, good and bad would be totally different. 

I would NEVER be such a bully to proclaim that those who didn't think my choice of Great composers were also their choice of Great composers and claim they have no knowledge or understanding of classical music as you have, I am not that arrigant or mean.  I FIRMLY believe people choose their own greatness wherever they can find it, and it is solely up to them.  Personal freedom!

By claiming that your Great composers must be everyone's Great composers you are being rude and a bully of the worst kind.

[Saul]

Why would you say that Stravinsky isn't a great composer when he's acknowledged as one of the greatest of the 20th Century? Do I really have to tell you about the importance of "The Rite of Spring"? While it may be said that Stravinsky's success rests on three ballets: "The Firebird," "Petrushka," and "The Rite of Spring," it should be noted that Stravinsky brought about a change in music. Everybody knows the story of the "Rite" premiere, but imagine having that kind of reaction and it's just the premiere? While it may have been a negative reaction at that time, the influence of this work still lingers heavily into our present time. But the question is does influence actually translate to greatness?

Let me explain to you why Stravinsky is not a Great composer.

His and the other composers' mistake and miscalculation was based on the wrong assumption that their unique creativity and originality can't be produced if they wrote their music within the traditional Baroque and Classical forms and styles. They began to venture to completely adventurous harmonies and forms  thinking that this will boost their originality. Well there was no boost, what happen was that they created banal music which some people decided to call it 'art' and attach to it all their intellectual weight to support this almost delusional fantasy like 'consensus' much like the modernists of visual arts when they began throwing and spilling buckets of paint on empty canvases believing in their petty minds that this is 'art'.

To me Greatness in composition , is when you produce amazingly beautiful music that touches the soul without breaking the rules, sticking to the rules and finding your own distinctive style within the classical rules of music, is what makes a great composer.

Now, if you go the extreme, you will have pop music lovers laugh at classical music, expressing complete love for junkies such as Britney Spears and Pink, in fact you would have millions of people who hate classical music and consider it inferior to any other genre of music.

I say, down with their 'opinions' numbers don't matter here. Even of the whole world will believe that Mozart was not a Great composer, I would be the only one still believing that he indeed was.

Therefore this is where 'popular opinion', influence to other modern composers, and Greatness meet up head to head. 

Popular opinion by those who don't know enough about classical music is pointless and doesn't effect the reality .  Influence on other modern composers to continue to compose in 'error' is plainly a shame and a misdirection of real authentic classical music. And Greatness is not a matter of just personal opinion and personal enjoyment, it must be evaluated on the quality of the compositions, their technical aspects, their innovation, their adherence to the rules of music, the forms, the styles and the harmonies, and last but not least, the orderly intelligent and logical construction of the music from beginning to end.

Music is like Poetry, just like in Poetry you can't expect to throw in words in a banality and then decide that its great. No it must have intelligence behind it, and if this intelligence was constructed with order and logic, then and only then it can be called great. Music is a serious thing, otherwise you can just open up the window and listen to the birds sing and the wind whisper and the trees move, this is also 'music' but its not human made art.

[Mirror Image]

Let me explain to you why Stravinsky is not a Great composer.

His and the other composers' mistake and miscalculation was based on the wrong assumption that their unique creativity and originality can't be produced if they wrote their music within the traditional Baroque and Classical forms and styles. They began to venture to completely adventurous harmonies and forms  thinking that this will boost their originality. Well there was no boost, what happen was that they created banal music which some people decided to call it 'art' and attach to it all their intellectual weight to support this almost delusional fantasy like 'consensus' much like the modernists of visual arts when they began throwing and spilling buckets of paint on empty canvases believing in their petty minds that this is 'art'.

To me Greatness in composition , is when you produce amazingly beautiful music that touches the soul without breaking the rules, sticking to the rules and finding your own distinctive style within the classical rules of music, is what makes a great composer.

Now, if you go the extreme, you will have pop music lovers laugh at classical music, expressing complete love for junkies such as Britney Spears and Pink, in fact you would have millions of people who hate classical music and consider it inferior to any other genre of music.

I say, down with their 'opinions' numbers don't matter here. Even of the whole world will believe that Mozart was not a Great composer, I would be the only one still believing that he indeed was.

Therefore this is where 'popular opinion', influence to other modern composers, and Greatness meet up head to head. 

Popular opinion by those who don't know enough about classical music is pointless and doesn't effect the reality .  Influence on other modern composers to continue to compose in 'error' is plainly a shame and a misdirection of real authentic classical music. And Greatness is not a matter of just personal opinion and personal enjoyment, it must be evaluated on the quality of the compositions, their technical aspects, their innovation, their adherence to the rules of music, the forms, the styles and the harmonies, and last but not least, the orderly intelligent and logical construction of the music from beginning to end.

Music is like Poetry, just like in Poetry you can't expect to throw in words in a banality and then decide that its great. No it must have intelligence behind it, and if this intelligence was constructed with order and logic, then and only then it can be called great. Music is a serious thing, otherwise you can just open up the window and listen to the birds sing and the wind whisper and the trees move, this is also 'music' but its not human made art.

You make some excellent points and I'm not disputing them nor am I going to argue those points with you. I can simply say that I know what I enjoy and Stravinsky's music has always been special to me. I think keeping an open-mind about music can allow some truly great things to happen. If you think Stravinsky is hack or terrible composer, then that's your prerogative, but bare in mind, his influence is massive and I certainly enjoy what he brings to the table musically. I'm also not the only person on this forum who feels this way.

I also feel some of the best music is achieved by breaking the rules. Rules are meant to be broken. That's what I enjoy about the Romantic and 20th Century periods. All of these composers were just so tired of adhering to these rules and restrictions. That's what I love about a composer like Debussy for example. He tore down those walls of restriction and created his own idiom. The best composers in my opinion are the ones that can create beautiful music, but at the same time, ignore what academia deems acceptable.

[Saul]

I tried to find that quote but was unsuccessful, can you please provide a link?

Here is what I found that Wagner said about Mendelssohn:

"Richard Wagner, great composer but despicable human being, saw Mendelssohn as one of his major rivals. Everyone held up Mendelssohn as embodying the highest ideals of culture in Germany, a level of esteem that Wagner desperately coveted. For Wagner, it was not a question of simply criticizing a colleague. He wanted to destroy Mendelssohn.

To that end, three years after Mendelssohn's death, Wagner wrote one of the most infamous publications in German history — or musical history, for that matter: "Das Judenthum in Musik" ("Judaism in Music") A vicious appeal to antisemitism, it proposed that Jews were parasites and incapable of expressing the sublimities of the German soul. Specifically naming Mendelssohn, Wagner claimed that what Jews produced was "artificial" and "imitative" culture. In contrast, he promoted his own appeals to unreason as "authentic." Wagner concluded there should be what he called an "Untergang" of Jews in general. (The word is ambiguous, meaning "decline" and also "destruction.") So when Mendelssohn had the misfortune to die young, his music was left to fend for itself against the Untergang smear campaign that festered into the following century and resurfaces regularly to this day."
http://www.forward.com/articles/15115/

"In the racial outlook of Richard Wagner we are confronted with concepts of "Volk," language, "Kultur," anti-Christianity, anti-Semitism, anti-Mendelssohnism, that resolve themselves into one complex, with reciprocal interrelationships all oriented around music, yet extending into every aspect of life, German life in particular."
http://www.nazi.org.uk/wagner-nazism.htm

I am totally and completely INSULTED by your insensitive comment that one cannot LOVE classical music without thinking the four composers you mentioned are great.  I SAY HOGWASH! in my 40 years of enjoying classical music none of those you listed I would consider great composers.  They range from bad to competent. 

I love CLASSICAL MUSIC DEARLY and own works by 319 composers!  Not only do I understand classical music, have studied, learned orchestration and writing for the effective range of all orchestral instruments.   I am a musician and a composer, admittedly a poor one. 

Here are the greatest composers I've ever heard:

ARNOLD, MALCOLM (1921-
BARBER, SAMUEL (1910-1981)
BERLIOZ, HECTOR (1803-1869)
BERNSTEIN, LEONARD (1918-1990)
BIZET, GEORGES (1838-1875)
BORODIN, ALEXANDER (1833-1887)
BRITTEN, BENJAMIN (1913-1976)
CHABRIER, EMMANUEL (1841-1894)
CHADWICK, GEORGE (1854-1931)
CHIHARA, PAUL (1938-
COPLAND, AARON (1900-1990)
DEBUSSY, CLAUDE (1862-1918)
DUKAS, PAUL (1865-1935)
DVORÁK, ANTONÍN (1841-1904)
FALLA, MANUEL DE (1876-1946)
GERSHWIN, GEORGE (1898-1937)
GOULD, MORTON (1913-1996)
GOUNOD, CHARLES (1818-1893)
GRIEG, EDVARD (1843-1907)
GROFÉ, FERDE (1892-1972)
HOLST, GUSTAV (1874-1934)
IBERT, JACQUES (1890-1962)
IPPOLITOV-IVANOV, MIKHAIL (1859-1935)
JANÁÇEK, LEO· (1854-1928)
KABALEVSKY, DMITRI (1904-1987)
KHACHATURIAN, ARAM (1903-1978)
KODÁLY, ZOLTÁN (1882-1967)
LISZT, FRANZ (1811-1886)
LLOYD, GEORGE (1913-1998)
MAHLER, GUSTAV (1860-1911)
MASSENET, JULES (1842-1912)
MEIJ, JOHAN DE (1953-
MENOTTI, GIAN CARLO (1911-
MILHAUD, DARIUS (1892-1974)
MINKUS, LEON (1826-1917)
MUSSORGSKY, MODEST (1839-1881)
NELHYBEL, VACLAV (1919-1996)
NIELSEN, CARL (1865-1931)
PISTON, WALTER (1894-1976)
PROKOFIEV, SERGEI (1891-1953)
RACHMANINOV, SERGEI (1873-1943)
RAVEL, MAURICE (1875-1937)
REED, HERBERT OWEN (1910-
RESPIGHI, OTTORINO (1879-1936)
RIMSKY-KORSAKOV, NIKOLAI (1844-1908)
RODRIGO, JOAQUÍN (1902-1999)
ROGERS, BERNARD (1893-
ROSSINI, GIOACCHINO (1792-1868)
RUSSO, WILLIAM (1928-
SAINT-SAËNS, CAMILLE (1835-1921)
SATIE, ERIK (1866-1925)
SHOSTAKOVICH, DMITRI (1906-1975)
SIBELIUS, JEAN (1865-1957)
SMETANA, BEDRICH (1824-1884)
STRAUSS, RICHARD (1864-1949)
STRAVINSKY, IGOR (1882-1971)
SUPPÉ, FRANZ VON (1819-1895)
TCHAIKOVSKY, PETER ILYICH (1840-1893)
THOMSON, VIRGIL (1896-1989)
TURINA, JOAQUÍN (1882-1949)
VAUGHAN WILLIAMS, RALPH (1872-1958)
VILLA-LOBOS, HEITOR (1887-1959)
WAGNER, RICHARD (1813-1883)
WALTON, WILLIAM (1902-1983)
WEILL, KURT (1900-1950)
WILLS, ARTHUR (1926-

These are the composer's I feel are Great composers, I can also make a list of over a hundred composers I feel are good composers.  And lists of fair, poor and bad composers, such lists are my personal opinion and what someone else considers Great, good and bad would be totally different. 

I would NEVER be such a bully to proclaim that those who didn't think my choice of Great composers were also their choice of Great composers and claim they have no knowledge or understanding of classical music as you have, I am not that arrigant or mean.  I FIRMLY believe people choose their own greatness wherever they can find it, and it is solely up to them.  Personal freedom!

By claiming that your Great composers must be everyone's Great composers you are being rude and a bully of the worst kind.

If you flip the coin you will begin to understand that your 'opinion' that Mozart wasn't a great composer is insulting to those of us who believe he is whether we like his music or not. But I was not insulted, and you shouldn't be either.

About the Wagner Quote, too bad you didn't take my word, but here's the source:

If you will purchase Felix Mendelssohn's Songs without Words Song Book Published by ALFRED and edited by Maurice Hinson, in the beginning , to be precise on page 8 you will see a quote made by the German Conductor Huns Von Bulow saying the following :

"Richard Wagner used to call Mendelssohn (in conversation at least) the Greatest Specifically musical genius the world has had since Mozart".

Amazing comment by the famous German conductor who was contemporary of Wagner and a great fan of Mendelssohn.

[Bulldog]

Here are the greatest composers I've ever heard:

And it's a fine list.  I did notice that all of your favorite composers were born after 1800.  Given that Bach and Mozart are from earlier periods, is it possible that some of your negative reaction to those two composers are time-based?

[Saul]

You make some excellent points and I'm not disputing them nor am I going to argue those points with you. I can simply say that I know what I enjoy and Stravinsky's music has always been special to me. I think keeping an open-mind about music can allow some truly great things to happen. If you think Stravinsky is hack or terrible composer, then that's your prerogative, but bare in mind, his influence is massive and I certainly enjoy what he brings to the table musically. I'm also not the only person on this forum who feels this way.

I also feel some of the best music is achieved by breaking the rules. Rules are meant to be broken. That's what I enjoy about the Romantic and 20th Century periods. All of these composers were just so tired of adhering to these rules and restrictions. That's what I love about a composer like Debussy for example. He tore down those walls of restriction and created his own idiom. The best composers in my opinion are the ones that can create beautiful music, but at the same time, ignore what academia deems acceptable.

And this is the heart of the matter...

Enjoyment and Greatness are two different things and are not tied to one another necessarily.

LOL just ask those who enjoy Britney Spears.. They love it!! They go crazy for it!!!

But both of us know and agree that her music is nothing and anything but Great!!!

[Mirror Image]

And this is the heart of the matter...

Enjoyment and Greatness are two different things and are not tied to one another necessarily.

LOL just ask those who enjoy Britney Spears.. They love it!! They go crazy for it!!!

But both of us know and agree that her music is nothing and anything but Great!!!

It's all subjective my friend, but, yes, we both know Britney Spears is garbage, but we're in a completely different universe than those uncultured, tasteless, uneducated baboons.

I'm simply saying that I think Stravinsky was a great composer, not because I said he was, but because he's acknowledged by classical musicians, scholars, and listeners from all over the world who have proven his music's staying power.

[Saul]

Mirror Image,

Those composers who feel they must break the rules in order to write beautiful meaningful music are not great, because the rules of music are not a contradiction to beauty and meaning and originality, case in point Mendelssohn and Brahms. Its entirely possible to compose original amazing music within the rules of classical music, if you can't do that, then you're just not great, you maybe an interesting composer or perhaps, an adventurous composer or better yet, a fine composer, but greatness is kept for those who don't  view the rules as 'walls' but as mediums of creativity and expression.

[Saul]

It's all subjective my friend, but, yes, we both know Britney Spears is garbage, but we're in a completely different universe than those uncultured, tasteless, uneducated baboons.

I'm simply saying that I think Stravinsky was a great composer, not because I said he was, but because he's acknowledged by classical musicians, scholars, and listeners from all over the world who have proven his music's staying power.

I have responded to this before hand :

They began to venture to completely adventurous harmonies and forms  thinking that this will boost their originality. Well there was no boost, what happen was that they created banal music which some people decided to call it 'art' and attach to it all their intellectual weight to support this almost delusional fantasy like 'consensus' much like the modernists of visual arts when they began throwing and spilling buckets of paint on empty canvases believing in their petty minds that this is 'art'.

[Mirror Image]

Mirror Image,

Those composers who feel they must break the rules in order to write beautiful meaningful music are not great, because the rules of music are not a contradiction to beauty and meaning and originality, case in point Mendelssohn and Brahms. Its entirely possible to compose original amazing music within the rules of classical music, if you can't do that, then you're just not great, you maybe be an interesting composer or perhaps, an adventurous composer or better yet, a fine composer, but greatness is kept for those who don't  view the rules as 'walls' but as mediums of creativity and expression.

Again, this is all subjectivity and your personal opinion. Your opinion isn't the only valid one on this forum. There are always two sides to the coin. What you just stated above is your own point-of-view. My own point-of-view is that I believe that great composers felt a need for change, but at the same, remained loyal to the beauty of music.

[Mirror Image]

I have responded to this before hand :

They began to venture to completely adventurous harmonies and forms  thinking that this will boost their originality. Well there was no boost, what happen was that they created banal music which some people decided to call it 'art' and attach to it all their intellectual weight to support this almost delusional fantasy like 'consensus' much like the modernists of visual arts when they began throwing and spilling buckets of paint on empty canvases believing in their petty minds that this is 'art'.

Again, this is just your opinion and as I have stated your opinion isn't the only one on this forum. There are plenty of people who love Stravinsky's music. It doesn't make them wrong for liking him nor is somebody wrong if they say Stravinsky is great. I believe he is and so do thousands of other people.

[Saul]

Again, this is all subjectivity and your personal opinion. Your opinion isn't the only valid one on this forum. There are always two sides to the coin. What you just stated above is your own point-of-view. My own point-of-view is that I believe that great composers felt a need for change, but at the same, remained loyal to the beauty of music.

I don't know where did I hinted that youre not entitled to your opinion...

But this is great and interesting indeed, this conversation...
I will continue to demonstrate the great deterioration of classical music after Grieg and its origins and causes and you have all the rights to agree or disagree with me...

[Mirror Image]

I don't know where did I hinted that youre not entitled to your opinion...

But this is great and interesting indeed, this conversation...
I will continue to demonstrate the great deterioration of classical music after Grieg and its origins and causes and you have all the rights to agree or disagree with me...

You never said I was not entitled to my opinion. That's not the point I'm making. The point to all of my posts is that there are those who have closed-minds and there are those who have open-minds. Which category do you belong in?

I can happily listen to A. Scarlatti, Gluck, Berg, Schmidt, Sibelius, and Sculthorpe one after the other and not feel the least bit impartial to any of them. The reason I can do this is because I have an open-mind.

[Saul]

You never said I was not entitled to my opinion. That's not the point I'm making. The point to all of my posts is that there are those who have closed-minds and there are those who have open-minds. Which category do you belong in?

I belong to the category of correct-minds.

[Mirror Image]

I belong to the category of correct-minds.

I would be very interested in knowing your listening patterns. What time period is the cut-off point for you?

[Saul]

I would like to make another point.

The modernist approach to music , the departure from traditional classical forms and rules, the breaking of these rules is directly responsible for the limitation of classical music and its power, and handing the greatness of music to today's pop, rap, hip hop junkies.

If no one would have broken the rules back then, classical music today would be the King of Music, and would have had a much wider following and a greater respect.

[Mirror Image]

I would like to make another point.

The modernist approach to music , the departure from traditional classical forms and rules, the breaking of these rules is directly responsible for the limitation of classical music and its power, and handing the greatness of music to today's pop, rap, hip hop junkies.

If no one would have broken the rules back then, classical music today would be the King of Music, and would have had a much wider following and a greater respect.

You can't blame the "breaking of classical forms and rules" for classical music's unpopularity. I think that in itself is a very narrow-minded approach to enjoying the music you claim to enjoy. Stop playing the blame game and open your ears a little to newer possibilities.

As I have asked you, what are your listening patterns? What time period is the cut-off point for you?

[Saul]

You can't blame the "breaking of classical forms and rules" for classical music's unpopularity. I think that in itself is a very narrow-minded approach to enjoying the music you claim to enjoy. Stop playing the blame game and open your ears a little to newer possibilities.

Its not a blame game but an investigation to why it happened. Surely everything has a reason, you know cause and effect.
I care for classical music, not just 'enjoying it' but as a concept. And you can see how it was diminished with the beginning of an adventurous modernist approach. I view classical music beginning from the Baroque Era as the High Mountain, those who tried to stay on the mountain were great, those who decided to leave it, departed from greatness and contributed to its diminishing.