Greatest composer who was not a genius?

[karlhenning]

I agree with Mr. des Prez. I think genius is something rare and special, is inborn (although the artist has to work hard to realize it), few have it, and it gives the arts most of their purpose. Baroque music would be greatly diminished by the absence of Handel or Bach, and overall not much by that of Corelli, though Corelli is a great composer. There is a difference in degree between greatness and genius, and we instinctively feel it.

My nominee for a typical great non-genius is Mendelssohn. I don't know if he's the greatest, but he seems to me the essence of the definition. A quandary I've always been in is with Brahms.  But I think he makes it to genius. However, if someone tells me he thinks Bach is a genius and Brahms not, I wouldn't argue too strongly. And neither would Brahms.

Brahms's personal humility is not evidence against his genius.  And there could stand to be a good deal more personal humility in Internet discussion boards on the arts.

Let's say I agree with you that Corelli doesn't rank as a genius.  I still contest the restrictive notion that Bach and Handel were "the only" Baroque geniuses.  (Just as Brahms's personal humility is not evidence against his genius, citation of a workaday Baroque composer is not evidence that the only Baroque geniuses were Bach and Handel.)  What is the case that none of Monteverdi, Purcell or Vivaldi was a genius?

I think Franco's point very well taken:

It is my view that an object of art means something by itself, distinct from its creator, and an idea of "genius" is speculative, biographical and irrelevant.

I generally get a strong sense that there is a small mind, keen to have his hand on the spigot of the "genius" pipeline (because it makes the scope of Western Music much more easy to fit into his mental closet) if you have just a genius or two per musical epoch.  It certainly simplifies the listening list!  Clear out all those non-geniuses, and I can concentrate on listening to the oeuvres of just a genius or two.

There is (I can readily testify) a great deal of soul-stimulating magical music of genius from the Baroque era, which did not happen to drip from the quills of Bach or Handel.  A lot of "Josquin's" "definitions" in this discussion are self-referential, and self-serving (which is only one of the reasons why trying to have an intelligent conversation with him generally seems hopeless).

[Josquin des Prez]

I still contest the restrictive notion that Bach and Handel were "the only" Baroque geniuses.

I only mentioned Bach and Handel out of the top of my head, just to make a point. I didn't imply this were the only two geniuses the Baroque ever produced. That's a different argument.

Brahms's personal humility is not evidence against his genius.

That's not what Chaszz was talking about. He was referring to the actual music, which to his ears is somewhat short of genius, though close enough to make the distinction difficoult. Again, whether his judgement is correct is another argument, the point is that he recognizes the quality of genius. Somehow this concept seems to escape a lot of people here.

[DavidRoss]

My nominee for a typical great non-genius is Mendelssohn.

How strange!  Given Mendy's extraordinary precociousness, the brilliance of his greatest achievements, and his role in resurrecting Bach, he fits the bill as well as anyone.

1% inspiration, 99% perspiration--hard work and persistence, maybe even obsessive drive, seem to be the defining characteristic.  Brilliance alone hardly guarantees success...and may even inhibit it.

Let's get real:  In virtually all instances, the phrase "X is a genius" translates as nothing other than "I like X."

[Sergeant Rock]

Let's get real:  In virtually all instances, the phrase "X is a genius" translates as nothing other than "I like X."

Well said. You're a genius, David.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

Well said. You're a geniuis, David.

I like you, too, Sarge.   

[Josquin des Prez]

How strange!  Given Mendy's extraordinary precociousness, the brilliance of his greatest achievements, and his role in resurrecting Bach, he fits the bill as well as anyone.

I'm not sure what his precociousness and his role in resurrecting Bach have to do with whether he was a genius or not.

1% inspiration, 99% perspiration--hard work and persistence, maybe even obsessive drive, seem to be the defining characteristic.  Brilliance alone hardly guarantees success...and may even inhibit it.

Except brilliance alone turned Wagner into a genius. He may have been persistent in his own fashion but there was no trace of perspiration in his musical development. He was not particularly talented in his youth and demonstrated an unwillingness to conform to any musical discipline or training. And there isn't a single case in which brilliance ever hindered a composer's "success", that i can think of.

Let's get real:  In virtually all instances, the phrase "X is a genius" translates as nothing other than "I like X."

A fallacious and unproven statement. 

[The Six]

If y'all know so much about what genius is, how about you answer the original question already?

[Franco]

Let's get real:  In virtually all instances, the phrase "X is a genius" translates as nothing other than "I like X."

A fallacious and unproven statement.

Actually, I think a much more credible statement than any of your genius declarations; pro and con.

[karlhenning]

I only mentioned Bach and Handel out of the top of my head, just to make a point. I didn't imply this were the only two geniuses the Baroque ever produced. That's a different argument.

Whom else do you recognize as geniuses of the Baroque era?

[Luke]

How about 'worst composer who was a genius'?  0:) 0:)

[karlhenning]

Wicked, Luke!

[DavidRoss]

How about 'worst composer who was a genius'?  0:) 0:)

You can probably guess my candidate:  a towering genius of self-promotion whose reach far exceeded his grasp. 

[Luke]

No comment.....  

[karlhenning]

(* ahem *) Check PM, gents.

[Josquin des Prez]

How about 'worst composer who was a genius'?  0:) 0:)

Haydn maybe.

[The Six]

How about 'worst composer who was a genius'?  0:) 0:)

*coughcough*

Ironically, by all reports, Saint-Saëns WAS a genius,

Maybe he's the worst composer who was a genius.

[karlhenning]

But I for one deny that Saint-Saëns is at all a bad composer.

[The Six]

Greatest composer who was a pederast?

[karlhenning]

Take it to The Diner, thank you very much.

[Josquin des Prez]

Whom else do you recognize as geniuses of the Baroque era?

Scarlatti most definitely. Monteverdi, maybe.