American Weirdness du jour: More Americans imagine that Obama is Muslim

[Florestan]

Now I'm curious. If GMG is any indicator, then less than a quarter of Americans believe in the Christian God --- so why would they object to Obama being non-Christian? Or do I miss the real issue here?

[karlhenning]

Now I'm curious. If GMG is any indicator, then less than a quarter of Americans believe in the Christian God --- so why would they object to Obama being non-Christian? Or do I miss the real issue here?

I think you've got it.  There's an Evangelical Christian "core" to the Rebublican party base which basically would find fault with a non-Christian president just for that reason (not that that's bigotry or anything).  And the kerfuffle is basically code for "he's not really American, and we have a space alien in charge in the White House."

[Florestan]

I think you've got it.  There's an Evangelical Christian "core" to the Rebublican party base which basically would find fault with a non-Christian president just for that reason (not that that's bigotry or anything).

I shall be blunt and say it loud: too bad the Founding Fathers were not Orthodox Christian, or at least Catholic... 

But I still wonder: is it just the Evangelical core of GOP which is kerfuffled (it's the very first time I encounter this word ) by the ambiguous relation Obama entertains with Christianity, or a significant portion of the Americans at large?

[Todd]

If GMG is any indicator, then less than a quarter of Americans believe in the Christian God

GMG is not a good indicator of Americans' religious beliefs.

[Florestan]

GMG is not a good indicator of Americans' religious beliefs.

Oh I'm sure of that. It was just a figure of speech.   

[karlhenning]

I shall be blunt and say it loud: too bad the Founding Fathers were not Orthodox Christian, or at least Catholic... 

Oh, that would have been impossible! : )

But I still wonder: is it just the Evangelical core of GOP which is kerfuffled (it's the very first time I encounter this word ) by the ambiguous relation Obama entertains with Christianity, or a significant portion of the Americans at large?

I think that, as it would simply be a change from The Way It's Always Been, there's a degree to which your American in the Street will do a mental double-take.  But for many Americans, there is (probably) this peculiar disconnect between pride in the country for having Freedom of Religion guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, and a lazy kind of feeling that that just applies to how I as an individual elect to practice as a Christian.  A good feeling that we benefit from the right, but perhaps an ill-practiced awareness that there's another fellow who is every bit as much a beneficiary.

[MN Dave]

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state

[bwv 1080]

I shall be blunt and say it loud: too bad the Founding Fathers were not Orthodox Christian, or at least Catholic... 

Given that the separation of church and state was an anathema to either organization in the 18th century, I would disagree with you there.

The country was founded, first and foremost, on ideas from the British Enlightenment.  Evangelicalism did not even exist in the US in the late 18th century, it being an early 19th century phenomenon with the great awakening.  The overwhelming majority of religious Americans were Calvinist protestants - anglicans, presbyterians or congregationalists with a minority of unitarians & quakers in the North

[karlhenning]

I think that, as it would simply be a change from The Way It's Always Been, there's a degree to which your American in the Street will do a mental double-take.  But for many Americans, there is (probably) this peculiar disconnect between pride in the country for having Freedom of Religion guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, and a lazy kind of feeling that that just applies to how I as an individual elect to practice as a Christian.  A good feeling that we benefit from the right, but perhaps an ill-practiced awareness that there's another fellow who is every bit as much a beneficiary.

Busy morning, and I can see I wasn't clear . . . meant to write to the effect that your average American in the Street may be apt to do a mental double-take at reflecting on the possibility of a non-Christian president.  Some slight glass-ceiling effect.

[Florestan]

Given that the separation of church and state was an anathema to either organization in the 18th century, I would disagree with you there.

The country was founded, first and foremost, on ideas from the British Enlightenment.  Evangelicalism did not even exist in the US in the late 18th century, it being an early 19th century phenomenon with the great awakening.  The overwhelming majority of religious Americans were Calvinist protestants - anglicans, presbyterians or congregationalists with a minority of unitarians & quakers in the North

What I meant in a rather oblique way is that the Bible-Belt fundamentalism which plagues the American political and social life is unknown to Catholic and Orthodox countries.

[bwv 1080]

What I meant in a rather oblique way is that the Bible-Belt fundamentalism which plagues the American political and social life is unknown to Catholic and Orthodox countries.

So why did divorce and contraception only become legal in most catholic countries in the past 30 or 40 years, and why are protesters for gay rights regularly assaulted in Russia?

[Florestan]

So why did divorce and contraception only become legal in most catholic countries in the past 30 or 40 years

Marriage anulments and de facto separations were quite common in Catholic countries, even since the Middle Ages.

and why are protesters for gay rights regularly assaulted in Russia?

Perhaps because (a) those protesters focus more on offending the moral sentiments of Russians by their dressing and attitude than on their rights and (b) some Russians are more temperamental than their Western counterparts.

Anyway, it's a long discussion and I'd gladly extend it if you are interested in such an exchange. For the time being I will note some sketchy points:

1. In most Catholic countries (with the possible exception of France and Austria) and in all Orthodox countries the notion of "legality" as understood in the Lutheran / Calvinist / Evangelical Anglo-Saxon world is quite unknown. "Law" is quite fluid in the general mentality. As a Spanish writer put it, the legal ideal of the Spaniard is to possess a document, provided with all necessary signatures and seal, which should read "the owner thereof is entitled to do whatever crosses his mind".

2. Paradoxically enough, the hierarchically tightly structured and dogmatically intransigent Catholic / Orthodox Churches engendered the almost anarchical temper of those nations, with Spaniards and Greeks being exemplary in this respect, while the (relatively) hierarchically losely structured and dogmatically relaxed Protestant / Neo-Protestant Churches engendered the social conformity and uniformity of those nations, with Holland and the original 13 British American colonies being exemplary in this respect (conformity and uniformity which were still powerful even in Tocqueville's times).

[Teresa]

I think you've got it.  There's an Evangelical Christian "core" to the Rebublican party base which basically would find fault with a non-Christian president just for that reason (not that that's bigotry or anything).  And the kerfuffle is basically code for "he's not really American, and we have a space alien in charge in the White House."

There is also the fear that Muslims want to destroy our way of life, and make us all bow to Allah.  My big concern would be taking away all the rights won by women in the last century and us becoming property of men.  In short the Muslim religion scares the hell out of me. 

Also not just Republicans there are also Democratic Evangelical Christians who would not be too fond of an elected official being Muslim.  Atheists likely have the most to fear from Muslims, if they ever get a stronghold in the western world.   

[bwv 1080]

1. In most Catholic countries (with the possible exception of France and Austria) and in all Orthodox countries the notion of "legality" as understood in the Lutheran / Calvinist / Evangelical Anglo-Saxon world is quite unknown. "Law" is quite fluid in the general mentality.

that is because the political tradition in these countries was one of abject despotism where the idea of a "rule of law" or "natural rights" was alien.

As a Spanish writer put it, the legal ideal of the Spaniard is to possess a document, provided with all necessary signatures and seal, which should read "the owner thereof is entitled to do whatever crosses his mind".

yes, in other words "badges? we don't need no stinking badges!"

[Superhorn]

   I'm sick of all this garbage.Obama wasn't elected to be our religious leader,as if we even needed one, but our president,and to run the country and take care of the economy,defense,etc.
  Let him do his for for Bejeesus' sake !




                                                                                  

[karlhenning]

There is also the fear that Muslims want to destroy our way of life, and make us all bow to Allah.

I have worked with Muslims.  They are taking to the American way of life (gradually, like any immigrants), and I do not fear in the least that they "want to destroy" it.

Have you ever talked to Muslims, Teresa?

You've got to stop talking as if they are all the same (and all this bogeyman of which you tremble in such fear);  that way lies bigotry.

[Xenophanes]

A couple of my wife's sons living in the U.S. visited us recently.  They are both very conservative for some reason.  These are not stupid people.  The older one, son A, services computers for a security company and builds (assembles) computers on the side.  Son B and his wife are computer technician and teacher, respectively,  who home school their children. 

I never actually talked to A about Obama's religion or birth certificate, but he is no fan of Obama.  I did talk to B's wife a bit about them as she brought up the subjects.  She is something of a birther and also seems to think Obama is likely a secret Muslim.  B and his family drove up in their own vehicle, which has stickers like "Obamanation" and "Give Me Back My Country." Scary! In many other respects, they are great people.

They came to visit their sister, D, and her husband whose daughter was celebrating her very first birthday.  She and her brother, C, who also lives locally, are liberal.  In Canada, one gets rather different views on the news. We didn't talk much about politics and religion with the visitors, and certainly didn't discuss same sex marriage.

[Florestan]

that is because the political tradition in these countries was one of abject despotism where the idea of a "rule of law" or "natural rights" was alien.

For all the "abject despotism" that ruled Catholic countries, it is exactly in those countries that life was (and still is) much more relaxed, laid back and happy-go-lucky then in the Protestant countries (where abject despotism was certainly absent, witness Jean Calvin in Geneva --- arguably the first totalitarian police-state in European history, Luther's doctrine of the absolute authority of the magistrate, second-hand Catholic citizens in England or witch-hunting in the American colonies).

Curiously enough, most American tourists go enthusiastically to exactly those places of "abject despotism" and I suspect they feel much more pleasure and joie de vivre in Venice, Paris, Athens or Barcelona than in Stockholm, Luebeck, Amsterdam or Helsinki.

Still more: in these US founded on the British Enlightenment, so opposed to Catholic abject despotism, we find among the most honored men across the country four Catholic aristocrats, raised and educated in the most thorough Catholic tradition, who nevertheless risked their lives for the US independence: Lafayette, Rochambeau, Pulaski and Kościuszko. 

But this has to do with my second point, which you didn't pick.

[Todd]

They are taking to the American way of life (gradually, like any immigrants), and I do not fear in the least that they "want to destroy" it.

Hmm, I suspect this may not have been worded just so.  As far as I am aware, not all Muslims are immigrants; there are quite a few native born Muslims, whether born into the religion or converted.  I dare say such Muslims have taken to the American way of life rather readily.  And, rather sneakily, you may not even know some people are Muslim.  (Like Communists, they are, those sneaky Muslims.)

One thing I think at least some people should remember is that immigrants who happen to be Muslim have probably come to the US for a variety of reasons, one of which may be to escape oppressive religious practices.  Such people most likely do not want to impose anything on anyone.  Of course, others may have come because they couldn't worship in a conservative enough way.  Whatever the case may be, I'm not exactly concerned about the US becoming a "Muslim" country, or the imposition of Sharia law.  Goofy worries about women becoming property of men due to Islam are alternatively charmingly naïve and grotesquely hate filled.

I'm sick of all this garbage.  Obama wasn't elected to be our religious leader,as if we even needed one, but our president,and to run the country and take care of the economy,defense,etc.  Let him do his for for Bejeesus' sake !

Well, Obama must be able, as President, to take flak on unimportant non-issues.  It comes with the job.  He's a big boy and seems able to handle it. 

[Philoctetes]

You got it all wrong.

He's the antichrist?

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