Help with organ music requested

[Gurn Blanston]

This days you can find it as low as 40$. Its really a no brainier for beginners.

True, except that he doesn't want a complete cycle, he wants a single disk. Knowing Todd, money is not the issue. I saw a 2 disk set of Walcha at Amazon, think I'll snap it up to replace my old E. Power Biggs disk. It has all those works and several more. Walcha seems to be a popular choice among the cognoscenti here... although I would like someone a bit more HIP, but hey, who's complaining?

[Marc]

What instrument is featured there, Cato?

The Organ of Eglise Saint-Sebastien, Nancy, France (1879, by Dalstein-Haerpfer).
More info, including disposition:
http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.553524&catNum=553524&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#

[MN Dave]

What instrument is featured there, Cato?

An organ! Duh! 

[Todd]

I know you can only listen to one disc at a time but still...

Not true at all!  I have three stereos in different rooms.  I could conceivably put on three discs at once, crank the volume on all three, and hear what happens.  It's all so John Cage! 

[MN Dave]

Not true at all!  I have three stereos in different rooms.  I could conceivably put on three discs at once, crank the volume on all three, and hear what happens.  It's all so John Cage!

Make sure one of the discs is Dark Side of the Moon. And watch Wizard of Oz while listening. COSMIC!!!   

[Josquin des Prez]

Um, no. The name of Bach isn't the silver bullet you are fond to imagine ; )

For organ music he is. No one even remotely compares, before or since.

[Josquin des Prez]

True, except that he doesn't want a complete cycle, he wants a single disk.

If he likes Bach at all, there is no reason he shouldn't foresee getting his entire organ output, eventually. If price is not an issue, why not just get it done? The fact the original Walcha set is already condensed to the essential works makes it a very attractive choice. The real reason for getting the set of course is to acquire a complete version of the organ mass, which is arguably the single greatest organ composition ever written. He can even extract all the relevant pieces and burn the mass in the correct order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavier-%C3%9Cbung_III

Which is what i did. The experience of listening to the entire mass in the correct format is indescribable.

[drogulus]

     Save Bach for a rainy day. Since you have criminal (Elgar) tendencies, why not go with his friend Max Reger? I have this one and can recommend it:

     

     I have a theory about explorations such as these, that one way to go is to conquer adjacent territories. An interest in one composer may lead to learning about his contemporaries, and in this case an influence.

     I also like compilations in organ music where you get to sample several composers. This one led to my discovery of music by Jehan Alain (other than Litanies, his most collected work):

     

     
    1/1. 'TOCCATA in F' – JULES GRISON (1842-1896)
    1/2. 'SCHERZO, Op.2 (1924)' – MAURICE DURUFLÉ (1902-1986)
    1/3. 'SCHERZO, from Organ Sonata No.5 in C minor, Op.80' – ALEXANDRE GUILMANT (1837-1911)
    1/4. 'MEDITATION, Op. Posth. (1964)' – MAURICE DURUFLÉ
    1/5. 'SCHERZANDO, from 3 Pieces for Organ, Op.29 No.3' – GABRIEL PIERNÉ (1863-1937)
    1/6. 'SCHERZO' – SAMUEL ROUSSEAU (1853-1904)
    1/7. 'SCHERZETTO, Op.108 (1938)' – JOSEPH JONGEN (1873-1953)
    1/8. 'CHORAL PHRYGIEN, from 2 Chorals for Organ (1935)' – JEHAN ALAIN (1911-1940)
    1/9. 'TOCCATA, from 12 Pièces for Organ, Op.5 No.3 (1910)' – JOSEPH BONNET (1884-1944)
    1/10. 'SCHERZO, from Organ Sonata No.8 in A, Op. 91 (1906)' – ALEXANDRE GUILMANT
    1/11. 'CHORAL DORIEN, from 2 Chorals for Organ (1935)' – JEHAN ALAIN
    1/12. 'TOCCATA, from Organ Symphonie No.5 in F minor, Op. 42 No.1 (1880)' – CHARLES MARIE WIDOR (1844-1937)
    1/13. 'SCHERZO, from Organ Symphonie No.4 in F minor, Op. 13 No.4 (1876)' – CHARLES MARIE WIDOR (1844-1937)
    1/14. 'PRELUDE in E flat minor, Op.66 (1913)' – VINCENT D`INDY (1851-1931)
    1/15. 'IMPROMPTU, from Pièces de Fantaisie – Suite No.3, Op. 54 No.2 (1927)' – LOUIS VIERNE (1870-1937)
    1/16. 'FINALE, from Organ Symphonie No.8, Op. 42 No.4 (1887 rev. 1901)' – CHARLES MARIE WIDOR

      Amazon clips are here.

[karlhenning]

If he likes Bach at all, there is no reason he shouldn't foresee getting his entire organ output, eventually.

Sure there is reason.  It is un-reason to posit as a given that liking Bach will map onto a need for all the organ music.

[Josquin des Prez]

Sure there is reason.  It is un-reason to posit as a given that liking Bach will map onto a need for all the organ music.

Would you say it is un-reason to posit that a liking for Beethoven would map into a desire to collect an entire subset of his works (say, his piano sonatas) which one may have not come into contact with? Personally, i don't see how it can be any other way. In fact, i am rather puzzled by the fact he hasn't done so already (in regards to Bach). Here's a man who's probably twice my years and twice the experienced listener who still hasn't made way into one of the most important body of musical works in European history, presumably, under some sort of prejudice towards this particular instrument. But c'est la vie i suppose.

[Bulldog]

Would you say it is un-reason to posit that a liking for Beethoven would map into a desire to collect an entire subset of his works (say, his piano works) which one may have not come into contact with? Personally, i don't see how it can be any other way. In fact, i am rather puzzled by the fact he hasn't done so already (in regards to Bach). Here's a man who's probably twice my years and twice the experienced listener who still hasn't made way into one of the most important body of musical works in European history, presumably, under some sort of prejudice towards this particular instrument.

Although I love Bach's organ works, it took me quite a few years until it really clicked for me.  Fact is that a lot of folks don't like organ music.  Another fact is that a strong classical music enthusiast is under no requirement to listen to any particular genre or composer.  Individual choice and preference is the king here.

Having said the above, it does strike me that, by any consensus I'm aware of, Bach's organ output is at the top of the mountain.  Unfortunately, JdP pushes this notion too hard and makes the mistake of thinking that everyone should get on the Bach organ train.

As for responding in a positive way to Todd's request, it would likely help if he told us of a particular time period that he's interested in.

[Josquin des Prez]

Fact is that a lot of folks don't like organ music.

But is it the music that they don't like, or the instrument? I get this underlying sense that many people seem to regard the instrument as an entity in itself, rather then a mere vehicle for musical expression, which is the primary emphasis with most other instruments. What Todd said regarding his first attempt at braking into the world of organ music is a good example. Why did it have to be William Byrd? Isn't that a rather esoteric choice? Regrettably, he didn't cherish the experience, but how do we know that this wasn't a reaction to the music of the composer, rather then the instrument? I've seen this attitude many times, where the focus is always on the instrument while the music is largely seen as secondary.

Another fact is that a strong classical music enthusiast is under no requirement to listen to any particular genre or composer. 

We've already been through this argument. A classical music enthusiast purposely avoiding a particular genre or composer is illogical. If the point is to enjoy and appreciate music, how does it make sense to deny oneself the pleasure of discovering even more musical treasures? And just to avoid being misunderstood, i'm not saying that one ought to explore every composer under the sun. Obviously, we all need to work at our own pace. My objection is to the irrational lack of interest some people demonstrate in exploring reputably great music. One may not need to explore the music of Bach or Beethoven at any given time, but eventually, it is understood, at leas to me, that one should. Otherwise, don't call yourself an enthusiast.

Having said the above, it does strike me that, by any consensus I'm aware of, Bach's organ output is at the top of the mountain.  Unfortunately, JdP pushes this notion too hard and makes the mistake of thinking that everyone should get on the Bach organ train.

Obviously, if one wishes to explore organ music, Bach ought to be the first stop, much like somebody wishing to explore symphonic music should probably make composers like
Haydn, Beethoven, Bruckner or Mahler their first priority. It surely wouldn't make much sense to start with a symphony by Boccherini, would it?

[Todd]

As for responding in a positive way to Todd's request, it would likely help if he told us of a particular time period that he's interested in.

In this case I'm open to any era. 

[drogulus]

A classical music enthusiast purposely avoiding a particular genre or composer is illogical.

      I see no reason to impose logic on explorations like these. Just feel your way around following whatever whim that strikes you. Sometimes the faint wisp of a logical motive might emerge, like a desire to learn about the baroque, or organ music, or music by blind French organists. Are you suggesting that this is "wrong"? Why am I getting the feeling that you do think that? Please, please tell me I'm wrong!

In this case I'm open to any era. 

     Check out those 20th century French guys. They're super illogical.

[Bulldog]

Obviously, if one wishes to explore organ music, Bach ought to be the first stop, much like somebody wishing to explore symphonic music should probably make composers like
Haydn, Beethoven, Bruckner or Mahler their first priority. It surely wouldn't make much sense to start with a symphony by Boccherini, would it?

Forget Boccherini, let's go with a Dittersdorf symphony. 

[listener]

Gothic Records are now distributed in the USA by Naxos.    The website http://www.gothic-catalog.com/    might be an interesting one to visit as it gives a lot of background to their recordings.

[Luke]

As a general principle I have sympathy with JDP's last post. We see it here often at GMG - round these parts it sometimes takes the form of people who don't want to explore outside the orchestral output of a composer and who won't explore choral/chamber/solo instrumental music even if these may be the areas in which a composer is at his best; or of people who fetishize the word 'symphony'. This seems illogically self-denying to me, though I suppose, as Ernie says, in the final analysis there's nothing inherently 'wrong' about it. We all have to have some starting point...

OTOH there is something quantifiably different about the organ, it seems to me - simply because it's an instrument so tied to venue which so often fails to 'score' on CD. Too frequently what we hear is a mush, a haze of reedy harmonics and echoes which fails to convey the nature of the music. Of course JDP is right - Bach's organ music is incomparably fine stuff. But on disc it doesn't always work for me (something I need to work on, I know).

Having said all that I'd suggest to Todd something like a single disc with the complete Brahms organ music on it - the early fugues, which include some real pearls, and the very late (i.e. last things he wrote) Chorale Preludes. You're getting some of the best, most important and most affecting Brahms here, which can't be bad, and it all fits on a single disc (I won't make a particular recommendation, I only have the Naxos, and it suits me fine). It's also mostly intimately coloured, slowish music, which is, I think, the type of music in which the organ comes across best on CD.

There are also some wonderful pieces by Messiaen, of course - earlier ones like Le banquet Celeste or La Nativite du Seigneur (a set of pieces somewhat in the Vingt Regards line, though shorter and lighter) come across particularly well on CD and are amongst his most charming music.

[drogulus]

As a general principle I have sympathy with JDP's last post. We see it here often at GMG - round these parts it sometimes takes the form of people who don't want to explore outside the orchestral output of a composer and who won't explore choral/chamber/solo instrumental music even if these may be the areas in which a composer is at his best; or of people who fetishize the word 'symphony'. This seems illogically self-denying to me, though I suppose, as Ernie says, in the final analysis there's nothing inherently 'wrong' about it. We all have to have some starting point...

OTOH there is something quantifiably different about the organ, it seems to me - simply because it's an instrument so tied to venue which so often fails to 'score' on CD. Too frequently what we hear is a mush, a haze of reedy harmonics and echoes which fails to convey the nature of the music. Of course JDP is right - Bach's organ music is incomparably fine stuff. But on disc it doesn't always work for me (something I need to work on, I know).

Having said all that I'd suggest to Todd something like a single disc with the complete Brahms organ music on it - the early fugues, which include some real pearls, and the very late (i.e. last things he wrote) Chorale Preludes. You're getting some of the best, most important and most affecting Brahms here, which can't be bad, and it all fits on a single disc (I won't make a particular recommendation, I only have the Naxos, and it suits me fine). It's also mostly intimately coloured, slowish music, which is, I think, the type of music in which the organ comes across best on CD.

There are also some wonderful pieces by Messiaen, of course - earlier ones like Le banquet Celeste or La Nativite du Seigneur (a set of pieces somewhat in the Vingt Regards line, though shorter and lighter) come across particularly well on CD and are amongst his most charming music.

     Luke, I'm not really against either logic or discipline in musical exploration. What I object to is the idea that only rigorous study bears fruit, and the suggestion that following your own inclinations isn't worthy. I probably would have benefited from a structured program of study, but I also think that others might have benefited from my intuition-led approach. And I use the same approach of letting one interest lead to another in history, philosophy and other areas. The best thing would be to do both, I suppose, but if I can only do one I'll follow my instincts wherever they lead. And incidentally, my instincts tell me to get more Bach. It's a coincidence, maybe?

[MN Dave]

There were even composers who didn't like the sound of certain instruments so why should an enthusiast torture their eardrums with sounds that irritates?

[karlhenning]

Each organ has its own voice, and many different timbres within its ranks.

I don't think it really perceptive to consider "the sound of the organ" irritating, say.