Piano Quintets

[Josquin des Prez]

Leo Ornstein not mentioned yet.  Obviously it needs to be better known.

http://poonhill.com/MP3Files/S610%20-%20Piano%20Quintet%20Mvt%201.mp3

Overrated artist which for some inexplicable reason is being pushed by everybody as some forgotten genius.

[Dax]

Overrated artist which for some inexplicable reason is being pushed by everybody as some forgotten genius.

I disagree. I've enjoyed Ornstein's music since 1965 and since then have often recommended it and lectured on it. My favourite piano quintet is his, along with those by Medtner, Bloch and the brief examples by Ives. And it is certainly highly rated in England by those who are familiar with it. Perhaps you would explain why you consider him to be "overrated"?

[Air]

I do think Taneyev's Piano Quintet is one of the best ever written.  There was a fascinating recording with Rosa Tamarkina, as well as with Maria Yudina...

[Josquin des Prez]

Perhaps you would explain why you consider him to be "overrated"?

Because he is not that great. There isn't a single ounce of artistic spark in any of his compositions. The only reason he is talked about is that he is placed under the dubious honor of having been a "pioneer" in youth, a rather unremarkable achievement in an age where everybody was a pioneer.

[vandermolen]

My favourites are by Shostakovich, Bloch No 1, Schnittke and Weinberg.

[Dax]

Because he is not that great.

That's uncorroborated opinion, of course, not incontrovertible fact. What on earth do you mean by the word "great" in that sentence?

There isn't a single ounce of artistic spark in any of his compositions.

Are we supposed to believe that you've heard them all? Of course you haven't. 

The only reason he is talked about is that he is placed under the dubious honor of having been a "pioneer" in youth, a rather unremarkable achievement in an age where everybody was a pioneer.

An extraordinary statement. Everybody?
Furthermore it suggests that you've heard no Ornstein work composed after 1920, including the piano quintet: he composed for about 70 years after that.

Is a reasoned opinion out of the question? You've served up something of which a schoolboy should be embarrassed. Have you actually heard Ornstein's piano quintet? There's no evidence that you have.

[Josquin des Prez]

Furthermore it suggests that you've heard no Ornstein work composed after 1920, including the piano quintet: he composed for about 70 years after that.

I just heard it. Its still as dry as anything else he has done, but i guess its well crafted enough to fool less discerning listeners. I suppose this proves beyond doubt that genius is something one is either born with or he's not. 70 years down the line and he is still the same composer he was in his younger days.

[Dax]

You've misunderstood my post. Ornstein's piano quintet does date from his younger days - 1927. And "dry" it isn't.
You appear to consider yourself a "discerning listener" and yet you see fit, on a piano quintet thread, to lambast a composer whose essay in that medium you hadn't previously heard. Strange, that.

It's interesting that several members have mentioned Bloch's 1st quintet which has features in common with that of Ornstein: definitely post-romantic but with a touch of the mechanistic at times (the 1st movement of the Ornstein is an allegro barbaro) and with a healthy dose of what in academic circles is known as the octatonic (diminished scale or mode 2 to the rest of us). It's a safe bet that if you like the Bloch then the Ornstein is also for you.

I get the impression that balancing the instruments correctly is inherently more difficult in this form, so it's only attempted by composers who are really skilled at that. Often, a P5tet winds up sounding like a miniature piano concerto rather than a chamber piece where all instruments are equal

I don't actually mind that strategy - it's certainly true of the Ornstein! One of the criticisms of that approach runs something along the lines of "the string instruments are forced into playing in octaves in order to hold their own against the piano": that can be a thrilling sound if it's not overdone.

I'd like to hear more about what anyone has to say about individual quintets: vandermolen has mentioned Weinberg which is a new name to me. I've seen the Tanayev quintet recommended elsewhere - oh, it's on youtube . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87gh4o19KQs

[snyprrr]

I'm particularly interested in PQ's by French & Belgian composers.  The ones I have on CD are as follows:

Saint-Saens, Gouvy, Farrenc (2), Faure (2),  Hahn, Franck, Schmitt, Vierne, Widor (2), D'Indy, Koechlin,
Le Flem, Hure, Castillon, Pierne, Cras, Theo Ysaye, Henri Dupont, Witkowski, Biarent, Ryelandt, Meulemanns

Does anyone know of others?

Hey!

Nice list. Care to elaborate on your favs here? I have always been interested in that fin de siecle sound, which is what I imagine the Schmitt Quintet to sound like, all chromatic, Poe-like morbidity. Which are Franckian, and which are Debussyian?

[abidoful]

Does anyone know of others?

Not "gallian" but from the north; Jean Sibelius: Piano Quintet in g-minor op. posth. from 1890 (?). Feruccio Busoni gave the premiere.

[snyprrr]

Just listening to Xenakis' Akea.

As I peruse the 'Library', I am struck by how I just haven't found any classic Piano Quintets of High Modernism. Perhaps the 'end of the world' aesthetic of the post-war culture didn't get around to the Piano Quintet until Xenakis wrote this deconstruction of this warhorse instrumentation. It certainly doesn't leave much else to do after it, though, the PQ's 'magical' qualities (tinkly keyboard, mysterioso strings) are pretty music left unheard.

The key here comes in the form of the Arditti SQ, for whom both Akea, and Luis De Pablo's Metaforas, were written. De Pablo certainly fills up the spaces Xenakis leaves alone. They make a nice pair. And, rounding the top spots, I have pieces by Castiglioni and Denisov and Sciarrino, which also continue the complimentary aspects.

I don't know any PQs by, say, Rihm, Lachenmann, or, Babbitt. Have you uncovered any hidden morsels?

[snyprrr]

I'm particularly interested in PQ's by French & Belgian composers.  The ones I have on CD are as follows:

Saint-Saens, Gouvy, Farrenc (2), Faure (2),  Hahn, Franck, Schmitt, Vierne, Widor (2), D'Indy, Koechlin,
Le Flem, Hure, Castillon, Pierne, Cras, Theo Ysaye, Henri Dupont, Witkowski, Biarent, Ryelandt, Meulemanns

Does anyone know of others?

I just got the Schmitt Op.51 by the Bern SQ/Bartschi (Accord/OOP). It's quite a work at around an hour, surpassing even the Bloch in length. I'll enjoy comparing the two.

Schmitt is evocative, without ever being exotic. Though it still sounds like Late Romanticism, there is definitely something special here. It feels like the entire, overwhelming weight of decadence and fin de siecle decay hangs over the music; though, in subtle ways. It's not as ultra chromatic as one might expect, but there is profuse, wild garden of invention. In a way, it is so understated that it simply insinuates itself into you: this is simultaneously (and immediately) elusive, and rewarding, music .

Seeing as we've sniffed around a nice deal on this Thread, I would certainly like to nominate Op.51 as the ultimate expression of this most leonine of chamber musics. J's list, though, might have a few surprises in it.

J?

[snyprrr]

I'm particularly interested in PQ's by French & Belgian composers.  The ones I have on CD are as follows:

Saint-Saens, Gouvy, Farrenc (2), Faure (2),  Hahn, Franck, Schmitt, Vierne, Widor (2), D'Indy, Koechlin,
Le Flem, Hure, Castillon, Pierne, Cras, Theo Ysaye, Henri Dupont, Witkowski, Biarent, Ryelandt, Meulemanns

Does anyone know of others?

I just got the Widor No.3 and the Vierne on a little Canadien label.

THE VIERNE IS SUPER AWESOME!!!!

EVERYBODY,... this Vierne Piano Quintet, written after the death of his son in WWI, really contends with the host of PQ masterpieces on this Thread.

Three 10min mvmts. Personal, whereas the Schmitt is more outgoing. Suffused with a lyricism that penetrates (not obvious,...many colors of "sad").

As far as heartfelt content, I would compare it to Schnittke's, though, I like this much much better. It truly has a fin d'siecle carousel nausea (well, ok,...)... ahhh, words fail!

The slow mvmt is special, and the finale has a Maestoso herocism that I find extremely refreshing.

Yes, it's hard to pick competitions any more in this field. I can't say that this is better than Bloch No.1,... but then, Bloch touches none of Vierne's emotions. It certainly feels like it wants to give the DSCH a run for its money, but, of course, these are two totally different melodic schemes.

I suppose the best way to get this piece is on Hyperion, with the Hahn,...but, get it you will! No doubt. And, if you're one of those old fashioned types that doesn't like Modern Music, then, this is certainly for you.

Whatever WWI killed (musically), it seems to be all here. 1919, and the jazzy era, lay just ahead. This kind of thing has never really come back, has it?

What was lost in WWI? (tawk amougnst yourselves)

[Maciek]

What, the thread is well into its 17th month of existence and no mention of Juliusz Zarebski (Zarębski) yet? Sacrilege!




(Or, to put it more simply: my, why haven't I noticed this thread before...?)

[abidoful]

Väinö Raitio has a Piano Quintet---but nobody knows it. Just me--- and ok; few other people  It is something like the destroyed Piano Trio of Szymanowski, or it sounds something like I IMAGINE that Trio by Szymanowski sounded like (did you hear that maciek  )

[snyprrr]

Väinö Raitio has a Piano Quintet---but nobody knows it. Just me--- and ok; few other people  It is something like the destroyed Piano Trio of Szymanowski, or it sounds something like I IMAGINE that Trio by Szymanowski sounded like (did you hear that maciek  )

interesting

[snyprrr]

I'm particularly interested in PQ's by French & Belgian composers.  The ones I have on CD are as follows:

Saint-Saens, Gouvy, Farrenc (2), Faure (2),  Hahn, Franck, Schmitt, Vierne, Widor (2), D'Indy, Koechlin,
Le Flem, Hure, Castillon, Pierne, Cras, Theo Ysaye, Henri Dupont, Witkowski, Biarent, Ryelandt, Meulemanns, Durosoir

Does anyone know of others?

I've been working off of J's great list here, and WOW!, have I found a couple of real winners!

1) I know I was raving about the Vierne last, but I went back to that cd and the Widor, Op.68, has a really distinctive Scherzo.

2) But, the real news for me was the PQ by Paul Le Flem. This one just had every note perfect from the first, minor key opening. And it's big! And it just keeps on coming with the tunes! J agrees, too! Truly, if you want to feel like you did a good thing, snap this one up!

FIRST RULE OF PQs: You must start off with a minor sixth!

3) Also, this 30min, single mvmt PQ by Jean Hure is in the same league. I must admit, that I am Mr. PQ, and I have been laid to rest, thank you. At this point, I've got so many wonderful examples, I'll get buried exploring further!

4) Two other worthys are by Georges Martin Witkowski (1898) and Adolphe Biarent (1913-14). Both exhibit the expansiveness of the rest. Even though so much of all this PQ music maybe 'sounds' the same, I'm just not getting tired of the PQ's unmatched ability to invoke a foggy Paris harbour on a Romantic, fullmoon eve, when there is intrigue afoot! Also, the back-of-the-hand-on-the-forehead, Heathcliff type drama, on the edge of the cliff, Leonore!, Leonore! Haha,... yea, it's a rainy afternoon, and nothin' does it better than a French PQ!

5) Jean Cras's PQ goes for the joyous, blossoms of spring, sound, opening with trilly trills all the way around. The music is dense and tight and full of infectious life. As a matter of fact, the opening bass line is, pretty literally, the Peanut's Theme!! The Timpani recording, however, felt really tight for me, lending a quite cramped atmosphere for so many bubbly and joyous notes. Ultimately, the recording damaged the overall enjoyment, but, if you are in the need, and played quietly, this should satisfy.

6) It is very hard for me to judge Faure's two fairly, since they are as familiar as FreeBird. But, I must say, if you think they are the epitome, you have got loads of joyous surprises awaiting you out there in French PQ-land.

7) I found Koechlin's PQ more problematic, which is becoming symptomatic with this Composer and myself. I guess I keep expecting him to be 'this', when he turns out to be 'that'. Here, there are a lot of creepy minor-seconds, reminding me slightly of Roy Harris's more Gothic moments (and Cowell's uber-chromatic period 1914-19). I didn't particularly like the transition to the much noisier second mvmt,... but, this guy has a way of ... I think I'll continue in the Kochlin Thread. I'm having too many problems with this guy!

Saint-Saens? Yea, it's early,... nothing like the rest here. zzz...

9) Honestly, as impressed I was with the Schmitt when I heard it, it is superceded in my personal taste bracket by some of these others. Trust me, all of these monsters seem to be flirting with three-quarters-of-an-hour.



Of course, I've been bitten by the bug, so now the danger is in over stripping the field; however, if this last batch is any indication, there are still a few uncovered gems out there (and I know how we all like to be first in the discovery, haha!).

I haven't yet reaquianted myself with the Franck and the Pierne (both on some cd out there with Q Parisii), but, I'm not feeling the pressure.

Wow,... there is so much good uncovered stuff. I think, more so than the SQ, the PQ defines Late Romanticism. What do you thinK?

[Maciek]

So you still haven't heard the Zarebski?

Which reminded me: there are also those two by Bacewicz. Both quite romantic, actually, and they have their fans. And champions (Zimerman!). I think they're OK, but, obviously, I'm not fanatical about them.

(Zarebski, on the other hand... )

((Come to think of it, have I actually heard both of Bacewicz's, or just the second...??))

[DavidW]

I think I now have to add Martinu to the short list of awesome piano quintets.  I've been listening to them on repeat and I can't get enough.

[Brahmsian]

I have to say that the Franck piano quintet has pretty much become my favorite piano quintet (at the present), surpassing Schumann's and Brahms'.

Maybe that will be short lived once I give my first ever spin of the Feldman piano quintet (piano + string quartet).  70+ minute 1 movement work, wow!