Some Recent Beethoven Symphony Cycles

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I tried to research this on the board, but the search function seems to have gone haywire. So apologies if this has already been discussed endlessly.

Am interested in picking up a box of Beethoven symphonies that is HIP-influenced but doesn't go the whole hog. Three recent cycles attract my attention:

Mackerras on Hyperion
Haitink on LSO Live
Vänskä on BIS

Clips of Mackerras and Haitink left a very positive impression; Vänskä less so. Based on research, opinions of listeners seem to be all over the place (which is normal I suppose).

What do our resident Beethovenologists think?

[DavidW]

Vänskä on BIS = yes

Seriously try using google like this--

Code Select Expand

Mackerras on Hyperion site:http://www.good-music-guide.com/community

It will search gmg for those words.  The only problem is that it will only search what it has cached.  I can't remember for this forum but for some sites it is a day or two behind, but on others it is several months behind.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Thanks, I'll try that. Why particularly do you like Vänskä? The clips (trying not to be paulb here) sounded a bit too light for my taste.

[DavidRoss]

Abbado/BP--Rome

[Brian]

Since 2000 there have been 15 new complete Beethoven symphony cycles (that I am aware of). They are as follows.

- Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin. Big, meaty, titanic interpretations with essentially no concessions to the HIP movement.
- Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic (Rome cycle in the red box). Fleet but powerful, energetic but opulent, this set strikes a great balance between the influence of the HIP and the "classic" Germanic tradition. All live performances.
- Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orch/Philharmonia. In interpretive approach, very similar to Abbado, with a slightly smaller band, a slightly faster tempo in places (occasionally detrimentally - I don't like his 4 mvt. ii), and just a bit more "verve." Fantastic booklet. All live performances.
- Vanska/Minnesota Orchestra. I have really mixed feelings about this one. It is good at what it does, but I don't always like that. It has a Spock-like surgical quality, in that everything sounds absolutely perfect and maybe a little inhuman. HIP influence on this cycle has been greatly exaggerated; it's simultaneously new and old-fashioned.
- Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra. HIP style, modern chamber orchestra. The most expensive cycle on the list, but you should hear their Eroica. It's a revolution. The sheer level of excitement is like hearing the premiere performance. Thrilling.
- Immerseel/Anima Eterna. Excellent set, HIP and on period instruments.
- Jarvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen. Like Dausgaard, HIP style with modern chamber orchestra. More consistent (Dausgaard whiffs on 4-6; I haven't heard Jarvi's Ninth but if it's less than great, that would be a first) and maybe better-played, though for imparting a picture of "Beethoven as revolutionary" they are equals.
- Pletnev/Russian National Orchestra. Haven't heard this.
- Norrington/Stuttgart SWR. HIP style, modern orchestra again. Good, but superceded by Abbado, Mackerras, Jarvi and Dausgaard. All live performances.
- Kuhn/Bolzano-Trento Haydn Orchestra. Haven't heard this.
- Rattle/Vienna Philharmonic. Haven't heard this.
- Haitink/LSO. I've only heard 4, 5, 7, and 8. 5 was a disappointment, though the others were good. Mackerras might be tops in the fifth, although for 7 and 8 the best are Jarvi, Haitink, and Abbado, plus Dausgaard in 7.
- Nelson/Ensemble de Paris. Haven't heard this.
- Tremblay/some youth orchestra from Quebec. I only heard the Eighth. It was boring.

Based on what you are looking for specifically - "HIP-influenced but doesn't go the whole hog" - I would highly recommend Mackerras, and I would even more highly recommend Jarvi and Dausgaard if you are willing to buy individual CDs rather than a box set. I also strongly recommend Abbado/Rome because it's the bomb, and Barenboim because it is exactly the opposite of what you want while still being excellent. Good for comparison listening.

[DavidW]

Thanks, I'll try that. Why particularly do you like Vänskä? The clips (trying not to be paulb here) sounded a bit too light for my taste.

Well unlike some of the other recent recordings it sounds like a full orchestra instead of a chamber orchestra.   But I agree on it sounding light, have you tried Barenboim?  That might be too much on the other side for you but holy cow is it good.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Thanks for the overview Brian. I'm leaning toward Mackerras, but I was really impressed with the Haitink clips I've heard. How HIP-influenced is Abbado? Does he have hard timps and fast tempi, or is he more on the traditional side?

Well unlike some of the other recent recordings it sounds like a full orchestra instead of a chamber orchestra.   But I agree on it sounding light, have you tried Barenboim?  That might be too much on the other side for you but holy cow is it good.

Right now Barenboim (based on reviews I've read) sounds like the opposite of what I'm looking for. I won't rule it out, though.

[Daverz]

Since 2000 there have been 15 new complete Beethoven symphony cycles (that I am aware of). They are as follows.

One you missed is the Skrowaczewski set with the Saarbrucken RSO (same orchestra as his Bruckner set).  This got generally positive reviews (I haven't heard it.)

Zinman's set apparently just misses the cutoff date for your list.

Of those mentioned, I can highly recommend the live Mackerras set (though his 9 doesn't impress me much).

[Dancing Divertimentian]

One you missed is the Skrowaczewski set with the Saarbrucken RSO....

Another one is Van Zweden w/ the Residentie Orchestra, Hague, on Philips. Van Zweden was for many years the concertmaster for the Concertgebouw Orchestra. He's currently MD of the Dallas Symphony. 

These are highly inspirational readings that give a nod to HIP while making warmth paramount.   

[Brian]

Davers and Divertimentian, thanks for your additions to the list! I am listening to Skrowaczewski's First right now, and it is a definite winner. Precise playing, great rhythmic snap, the fresh energy of youth (Beethoven's youth, that is).

[Henk]

Davers and Divertimentian, thanks for your additions to the list! I am listening to Skrowaczewski's First right now, and it is a definite winner. Precise playing, great rhythmic snap, the fresh energy of youth (Beethoven's youth, that is).

The focus on interpretation and the way you describe them, turns you into a sort of snob, Brian. You're listening to intepretations instead of the music. But go ahead if this is what you want and leave my words unnoticed.

[Henk]

Abbado/BP--Rome

This is the cycle for me, David, maybe in combination with Immerseel's. You made me notice it.

[DarkAngel]

Abbado/BP--Rome

Don't forget you can get the DVD set for not much more than CDs cost......

[Brian]

The focus on interpretation and the way you describe them, turns you into a sort of snob, Brian. You're listening to intepretations instead of the music. But go ahead if this is what you want and leave my words unnoticed.

Did you notice that I like basically all the cycles I listed? Including Skrowaczewski now, I listed 11 that I've heard, and I love 7 of them, like 2 a lot, have mixed feelings about 1 and dislike 1. If I were a "snob" I would probably not have a 64% chance of loving any random performance you play. The only reason I ever like a performance of Beethoven is because it lets me access some aspect of the "spirit" of the music itself.

[Bulldog]

The focus on interpretation and the way you describe them, turns you into a sort of snob, Brian. You're listening to intepretations instead of the music.

News flash!  All recordings are interpretations of a piece of music.  I have no idea if you're a snob, but Brian certainly is not.

[Scarpia]

The focus on interpretation and the way you describe them, turns you into a sort of snob, Brian. You're listening to intepretations instead of the music. But go ahead if this is what you want and leave my words unnoticed.

The last bit of advice is probably the most relevant here.   

[Henk]

Did you notice that I like basically all the cycles I listed? Including Skrowaczewski now, I listed 11 that I've heard, and I love 7 of them, like 2 a lot, have mixed feelings about 1 and dislike 1. If I were a "snob" I would probably not have a 64% chance of loving any random performance you play. The only reason I ever like a performance of Beethoven is because it lets me access some aspect of the "spirit" of the music itself.

Brian, you're a dedicated listener, I have little (no) doubt about that. But what means "some aspect of the spirit of the music", what "aspects" are you referring to? Isn't it more about the spirit of a piece of music in it's entirety, at least that's the way I like to listen to music and I think is also how a composer creates and thinks about his compositions.

Henk

[DavidW]

Henk has trouble with context.  This is a thread about interpretations of music on the recordings forum.  Brian is not a snob, and how could he not talk about interpretations on a thread where the op asked for that?  I don't think that Velimir was chiefly concerned with sound quality, cover art or liner notes... so where does that leave us?  Brian's survey is damned informative, and I appreciate him posting.   Henk if you want to talk about the spirit of Beethoven's symphonies without reference to performance, there is a room for that but it is not this one.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Once again, Henk has allowed his bizarre personal obsessions to derail a thread. Thanks to those who responded seriously. I'm closing this one down.