What's the point of listening to so much music?

[knight66]

It may depend just what you are listening to, but for instance I have several recordings of Bach Goldberg Variations, they are all different. If I had 40 versions I have no doubt I would not be able to tell say number 18 from number 34....but that does not invalidate that most music yields different things depending on who performs it and there is no one 'right' version of any complex masterpiece.

Mike

[Saul]

It may depend just what you are listening to, but for instance I have several recordings of Bach Goldberg Variations, they are all different. If I had 40 versions I have no doubt I would not be able to tell say number 18 from number 34....but that does not invalidate that most music yields different things depending on who performs it and there is no one 'right' version of any complex masterpiece.

Mike

Exactly there are no right versions for these works, only marginal varieties of expression which is a natural thing, given the musicians are only performing the music of a composer, but not actually composing the piece. Its like 100 different artists sketching the Mona Lisa, they all have their versions, but the primal glory belongs to Di Vinci.

Too many at times, people forget the composer and instead focus on what this or that pianist did different, forgetting that its not really a matter of art per say, but a natural process of expressing something written or composed or painted by someone else.

Cheers,

Saul

[Mirror Image]

Well the first impression is a factor, but I did happen to have really good musicians performing these works by various composers at my first listening to them, I guess I was lucky to get it right the first time.
But if one really thinks about it deeply and objectively, the differences of performances are not that great, and a good number of these differences are things that people dream up, insisting that these differences are primal, and I say they are marginal, most works that were recorded by well educated talented virtuosos, are the same with minor adjustments as I said before.

Best of Wishes,

Saul

I think this post reveals more about Saul's own listening habits than any kind of intelligent argument.

[Saul]

I think this post reveals more about Saul's own listening habits than any kind of intelligent argument.

Ok whatever, I just listen to the music and try to enjoy it, I don't care for comparing music, for me its pointless, though I understand that for some people its a form of entertainment, well if you like it and this is your cup of tea, then listen away.

[knight66]

Saul, I am only partly with you here. I think it is difficult now for a new pianist to make the Beethoven Emperor Concerto sound new.....every possible approach has been taken. But if nothing else, it is a personal exploration for that specific artist and is likely to modify over time as they develop their knowledge of the piece.

The comparison with the da Vinci is not valid. That painting exists for all to see. Music generally needs to be released by a performer. Sitting on the page, most 'listeners' will make little of it.

If the performer can realise the piece and at least make it seem fresh, that is a triumph. As long as it is not wrongheaded I don't see that the composer is being left behind.

Mike

[Bulldog]

Well the first impression is a factor, but I did happen to have really good musicians performing these works by various composers at my first listening to them, I guess I was lucky to get it right the first time.
But if one really thinks about it deeply and objectively, the differences of performances are not that great, and a good number of these differences are things that people dream up, insisting that these differences are primal, and I say they are marginal, most works that were recorded by well educated talented virtuosos, are the same with minor adjustments as I said before.

Don't you get tired of saying the same thing over and over again?

[Saul]

Saul, I am only partly with you here. I think it is difficult now for a new pianist to make the Beethoven Emperor Concerto sound new.....every possible approach has been taken. But if nothing else, it is a personal exploration for that specific artist and is likely to modify over time as they develop their knowledge of the piece.

The comparison with the da Vinci is not valid. That painting exists for all to see. Music generally needs to be released by a performer. Sitting on the page, most 'listeners' will make little of it.

If the performer can realise the piece and at least make it seem fresh, that is a triumph. As long as it is not wrongheaded I don't see that the composer is being left behind.

Mike

Part of the problem is that back then most serious performers of music were also composers.
Today performance has become a genre by itself.

The recording studios and the publishing companies know this fact way too well, that's why they push off new composers and their music, and concentrate on recording and publishing the same old Mozart Sonata for the millionth time.

[Saul]

Don't you get tired of saying the same thing over and over again?

Another trouble maker in our midst...
Please focus on the subject can you train yourself to do that?

[Mirror Image]

Exactly there are no right versions for these works, only marginal varieties of expression which is a natural thing, given the musicians are only performing the music of a composer, but not actually composing the piece. Its like 100 different artists sketching the Mona Lisa, they all have their versions, but the primal glory belongs to Di Vinci.

Too many at times, people forget the composer and instead focus on what this or that pianist did different, forgetting that its not really a matter of art per say, but a natural process of expressing something written or composed or painted by someone else.

Cheers,

Saul

The composer writes music and NOBODY knows what he/she was thinking or how it should be played that is why different interpretations exist. Not everybody views a piece of art the same way. If you don't understand this, then you shouldn't be listening to classical music or buying any recordings for that matter.

Your logic continues to baffle me. As a pianist, do you play other composer's music totally devoid of emotion? It is your emotion that shapes the work and changes it. You DON'T know what the composer's intentions were all you have is the music in front of you and that's it. The ball is in your court.

If you can't understand this then, again, you shouldn't be involved with classical music.

[knight66]

Saul, Singers were rarely composers. I think you get stuck in a world of pianists, who often did compose. Many pieces have been commissioned by instrumentalists who were not themselves composers.

Mike

[Saul]

The composer writes music and NOBODY knows what he/she was thinking or how it should be played that is why different interpretations exist. Not everybody views a piece of art the same way. If you don't understand this, then you shouldn't be listening to classical music or buying any recordings for that matter.

Your logic continues to baffle me. As a pianist, do you play other composer's music totally devoid of emotion? It is your emotion that shapes the work and changes it. You DON'T know what the composer's intentions were all you have is the music in front of you and that's it. The ball is in your court.

If you can't understand this then, again, you shouldn't be involved with classical music.

Every composer has a different way of playing the piece.

Big deal, this is natural, tell me something I don't know.

Some people insist attaching art to something that is impossible to do otherwise.
There is no way that 2 pianists will play the same piece the same way...

Thank you, I didn't know that, I really needed you to tell me that...

[Saul]

Saul, Singers were rarely composers. I think you get stuck in a world of pianists, who often did compose. Many pieces have been commissioned by instrumentalists who were not themselves composers.

Mike

I'm talking about instrumental music.
Most serious perfomers of Instrumental music back then also composed, some more then others, but that is a fact.

[Mirror Image]

Every composer has a different way of playing the piece.

Big deal, this is natural, tell me something I don't know.

Some people insist attaching art to something that is impossible to do otherwise.
There is no way that 2 pianists will play the same piece the same way...

Thank you, I didn't know that, I really needed you to tell me that...

But the problem is you continue to insist that it's "pointless" to listen to different interpretations of a piece of music.

When are you going to stop contradicting yourself and actually think about what you're going say first before you say it?

[Saul]

But the problem is you continue to insist that it's "pointless" to listen to different interpretations of a piece of music.

When are you going to stop contradicting yourself and actually think about what you're going say first before you say it?

You missed the whole point..

Differences in interpretation are a natural aspect of performing written compositions, and the differences that do arise, I say are minor, and not really worthy of this whole business of comparative listening.

I hope that you got this now.

Bare in mind that I'm talking about well educated professional performers.
Do I care if Horowitz or Kissin play the Bach, not really.

Bach is Bach and I will enjoy it from every talanted pianist out there.

[Mirror Image]

You missed the whole point..

Differences in interpretation are a natural aspect of performing written compositions, and the differences that do arise, I say are minor, and not really worthy of this whole business of comparative listening.

I hope that you got this now.

Bare in mind that I'm talking about well educated professional performers.
Do I care if Horowitz or Kissin play the Bach, not really.

Bach is Bach and I will enjoy it from every great pianist out there.

The differences in each performance is what seperates them. There are bad performances and uninspired performances as well and I've heard many. This said, with your logic, every performance is great, which certainly isn't true.

Ashkenazy conducting Vivaldi...no, Pinnock conducting Vivaldi...yes.

[Saul]

The differences in each performance is what seperates them. There are bad performances and uninspired performances as well and I've heard many. This said, with your logic, every performance is great, which certainly isn't true.

Every performance of a particular composition by a talented virtuoso or by a talented conductor and Orchestra are basically the same, the differences that some people find is nothing more then a strong spark of imagination insisting that one is better then the other, and as Knight said before, there is no telling which is really better, just like you said that one can't know for sure how the composer himself played it or wanted to be played right now.

So what's this whole business of comparing?
What are you comparing, things that don't have a place in the truth or in reality?

[knight66]

I'm talking about instrumental music.
Most serious perfomers of Instrumental music back then also composed, some more then others, but that is a fact.

You mean solo instrumental music. So you are getting into a sub set of music. You can't mean symphonic music, as

A) Many composers could not conduct.

B) They certainly could not play all the instruments that they composed for.

As I suggested, really, I think you are referring to piano music. The musical world is much bigger than that.

Mike

[Saul]

You mean solo instrumental music. So you are getting into a sub set of music. You can't mean symphonic music, as

A) Many composers could not conduct.

B) They certainly could not play all the instruments that they composed for.

As I suggested, really, I think you are referring to piano music. The musical world is much bigger than that.

Mike

But they could invision in their minds the whole Orchestra playing. They say about Beethoven that even with his piano music, he heard strings.

[knight66]

as Knight said before, there is no telling which is really better, just like you said that one can't know for sure how the composer himself played it or wanted to be played right now.

Oh, no I don't ascribe to that. Some are certainly better than others and as MI said, many performances are uninspired. Brushing aside the element of imaginative interpretation throws out baby and bathwater.

Mike

[knight66]

But they could invision in their minds the whole Orchestra playing. They say about Beethoven that even with his piano music, he heard strings.

What has that to do with the argument? We only know what is on the page as released by musicians, we don't know what they heard inside their heads.

Mike