Indian Subcontinent Classical Music

[arkiv]

It's really a mystery why the cello did not become as popular as the violin in Indian music (South Indian classical, anyway).

Was not the first fiddle invented in India?

[Opus106]

Was not the first fiddle invented in India?

Do you mean the violin, or something more specific? The violin was first adapted to Carnatic music by composer Muthuswami Dikshitar's brother, Balaswami Diskshitar. He was taught by a British musician employed at the Fort St. George, during a visit to Madras (now Chennai) in the late 18th century. You may find this article on the artistic brothers instructive.

As is well known, it was in Madras that the Dikshitar family first saw the violin in the Fort St. George orchestra. They appreciated its immense potential and adapted it to Carnatic music. The youngest Dikshitar child, Balaswami was trained on it by a violinist from the Fort.

[Sadko]

I like some recordings of Debashish Bhattacharya, a slide guitarist. Other favourites are: Ajoy Chakrabarty (vocal), and Imrat Khan (surbahar, sitar).

@jowcol: I liked this recording of Shivkumar Sharma very much:

[jowcol]

That Shivkumar Sharma album is a fine one, although I must confess that there are few of his straight-ahead classcial albums I don't like. 

He did a crossover  album called Feelings (ugh-- what a name) that is sort of uneven, but the last 20 minutes was a revalation for me, as he mixed Indian Rhythms with chord progressions and a lot of techniques that was a huge influence on me as a player.  (The first half, however, has some wretched moments.)

[Leon]

I prefer the traditional classical music to the Indian/Western fusion.

Speaking of Shiv Kumar Sharma, along with the one just mentioned, here's a couple I like:

With Bari Prasad Chaurasia

[asin]B00002R0NA[/asin]

And this one with Ustad Zakir Hussain which offers several shorter ragas and the reviewer thinks it to be a good introduction to Indian Classical music.



Too bad so many of these are OOP.

[Sadko]

I prefer the traditional classical music to the Indian/Western fusion.

[...]

Too bad so many of these are OOP.

Yes, I also prefer traditional over fusion. Fischer-Dieskau once said in an interview something like "Crossover is a mass-annihilation of the world's rich musical heritage". At that time "world music" was new to me, but later I often had to think of his words, when I came across old and newer, westernised "no-more-traditional" music.

[Opus106]

I prefer the traditional classical music to the Indian/Western fusion.

Speaking of Shiv Kumar Sharma, along with the one just mentioned, here's a couple I like:

With Bari Prasad Chaurasia

[asin]B00002R0NA[/asin]

The font makes the H in Hari look like a B.

[Leon]

The font makes the H in Hari look like a B.

You're right; I am terrible with these names, I can't wrap my head around some of them and spaced out typing what I saw  - but the music is still good. 

[jowcol]

Yes, I also prefer traditional over fusion. Fischer-Dieskau once said in an interview something like "Crossover is a mass-annihilation of the world's rich musical heritage". At that time "world music" was new to me, but later I often had to think of his words, when I came across old and newer, westernized "no-more-traditional" music.

I think that assessment is a bit extreme.  Among other things, crossover can bring new audiences over to a style of music.  The popularization of Indian music starting in the 60s in the west, even though some of the efforts were pretty cheesy, did a lot to attract non-Indian listeners to the classical tradition.

Also, I would say that the Hindustani and Carnactic traditions are having some of the same challenges that the western "classical" tradition is facing-- how do you attract listeners in a younger generation weaned on pop music?  Crossover is a way to attract them.

[Leon]

I think that assessment is a bit extreme.  Among other things, crossover can bring new audiences over to a style of music.  The popularization of Indian music starting in the 60s in the west, even though some of the efforts were pretty cheesy, did a lot to attract non-Indian listeners to the classical tradition.

Also, I would say that the Hindustani and Carnactic traditions are having some of the same challenges that the western "classical" tradition is facing-- how do you attract listeners in a younger generation weaned on pop music?  Crossover is a way to attract them.

I agree 100% since, after all, I came to discover Indian Classical music from: 1) George Harrison/Ravi Shankar - then John McLaughlin, and then to looking for Indian musicians beyond the ones that were involved with these "east/west" projects.  I don't mean to take anything away from the fusion things, it's just now that I have listened to the straight classical recordings I realize that I like them a bit more than the fusions - but I still like the fusions.

[bwv 1080]

of course Hindustani music is a fusion itself of Indian and Central Asian traditions and dates back to the 13th century or thereabouts

ever listen to Drupad?  it can be pretty hard to take

my theory is that the best musical traditions are all fusions or mongrels

[Leon]

of course Hindustani music is a fusion itself of Indian and Central Asian traditions and dates back to the 13th century or thereabouts

ever listen to Drupad?  it can be pretty hard to take

my theory is that the best musical traditions are all fusions or mongrels

I have not heard any Drupad, but have been interested in hearing some precisely because it has been described as the purer form of the music that evolved into the two major Indian classical styles.  But, when I use the term fusion, I (and I suspect most people) mean the kind of mixing of styles and musicians from two different worlds - not the historical development of a specific regional genre.  I don't particularly like the term "crossover" but that is synonymous with fusion in my mind.

I am still a newbie concerning this music but have been reading about it (in the Grove Encyclopedia) and have some library books on the way that will supplement my knowledge.  I've acquired about 50 different recordings over the last year and am just now beginning to feel as if I have a handle on some of the basic elements of the style - but I am very much interested in learning more about it and listening to more.

What interests me the most are how the scales are developed over the length of a piece and the musician's manipulation of time/rhythm.

I never knew that this music would be of such intense interest to me.  It all happened by accident, too.

[Sadko]

Yes, my way of wording the quote was a bit extreme, and I do see the aspect of reaching wider audiences. But when I hear some older traditional music of some regions compared to new merged ones, I do have a sad feeling of a loss.

As an entry to Dhrupad I can recommend the disc I showed yesterday in the listening thread:

Uday Bhawalkar: A Dhrupad Recital (Rags Puriya & Jog)

Bhawalkar has a warm, pleasant voice, while with the famous Dagars I often need a lot of mental filtering to enjoy their singing.

If there is interest I can look for more recommendations. I don't have SO many more, but a few more are there, waitng to be played again, after a long rest in cupboard.

[Leon]

I found some Dhrupad on Youtube and immediately recognized it something I have in my collection by the Dagar Brothers (don't know if it is part of the Royal Collection of Mewar).  It is a style I will study more. 

Thanks, sadko, for the other suggestion.

[Sadko]

This is a quick shot of 6 CDs which I didn't rip yet:



(click to enlarge)

And this I ripped alreeady, I like it a bit less than Bhawalkar's Navras CD of my previous post.



The top right "Bidur Mallik & Sons" could be good to start with, but being on "The Fast Side of Dhrupad", and consisting of many smaller pieces, it's a bit different to what you would expect normally.

The bottom right, Mallik family, live 1993-05-22, I recorded from a radio broadcast, and I liked it very much. This is the opposite of the one above: just one piece, unfolding slowly.

The rest I have to listen to again to say more, though I remember  being disappointed of the box set on the lower left side, "The Art of Dagarvani Dhrupad".

[bwv 1080]

I found some Dhrupad on Youtube and immediately recognized it something I have in my collection by the Dagar Brothers (don't know if it is part of the Royal Collection of Mewar).  It is a style I will study more. 

Thanks, sadko, for the other suggestion.

yes, the Dagars are the most prominent exponents and to my ears compared to a khayal singer like Fateh ali Khan or Parveen Sultana the music is quite dull

[Sadko]

yes, the Dagars are the most prominent exponents and to my ears compared to a khayal singer like Fateh ali Khan or Parveen Sultana the music is quite dull

I understand why someone would say that. But if I am in a receptive mood for it I like the more introvert character of the music.

[jowcol]

I am still a newbie concerning this music but have been reading about it (in the Grove Encyclopedia) and have some library books on the way that will supplement my knowledge.  I've acquired about 50 different recordings over the last year and am just now beginning to feel as if I have a handle on some of the basic elements of the style - but I am very much interested in learning more about it and listening to more.

What interests me the most are how the scales are developed over the length of a piece and the musician's manipulation of time/rhythm.

I never knew that this music would be of such intense interest to me.  It all happened by accident, too.

I tried to sample some Indian stuff early on, and it didn't really take. (the typical Ravi or an East Meets West album). 

It wasn't until I started playing the Western version of the Santur and then tried Shivkumar Sharma that I felt the need to dig deeper.  Here was what had to be the world's greatest player on my instrument-- I could tell that even if I could not follow the structure of the music.

One thing I find interesting is that Western beginners have the most trouble adjusting to the Alap, and often need to skip ahead.  I've reached the point where the Alap is my favorite part, and I feel cheated if it gives way too quickly to the later movements.   

An Alap is a challenge to play-- even if you are just messing around with the scale like me and don't have any formal training. While the technical challenge is minimal, the amount of concentration  needed to sustain and develop the mood is excruciating.  I also had another odd experience trying to play a raga (as an amateur messing around-- no teacher...).  I wasn't able to get a new scale to work-- I was getting frustrated.  I had an hour long walk to work back then.  As I started on my way, I decided to put away my walkman and use the hour to develop the Raga in my head as best I could through all of the phases.  The funny thing was, I was too successful.  I got to work and I couldn't turn it off-- it actually got a bit creepy, and I've been afraid to try it again.



I go through heavy Indian binges, and then back off again.  It depends on my mood.  But there is something a good Alap can do to me that I really can't find anywhere else in music.  I think it is the purest form of improv there is.

[Sadko]

I tried to sample some Indian stuff early on, and it didn't really take. (the typical Ravi or an East Meets West album). 

It wasn't until I started playing the Western version of the Santur and then tried Shivkumar Sharma that I felt the need to dig deeper.  Here was what had to be the world's greatest player on my instrument-- I could tell that even if I could not follow the structure of the music.

One thing I find interesting is that Western beginners have the most trouble adjusting to the Alap, and often need to skip ahead.  I've reached the point where the Alap is my favorite part, and I feel cheated if it gives way too quickly to the later movements.   

An Alap is a challenge to play-- even if you are just messing around with the scale like me and don't have any formal training. While the technical challenge is minimal, the amount of concentration  needed to sustain and develop the mood is excruciating.  I also had another odd experience trying to play a raga (as an amateur messing around-- no teacher...).  I wasn't able to get a new scale to work-- I was getting frustrated.  I had an hour long walk to work back then.  As I started on my way, I decided to put away my walkman and use the hour to develop the Raga in my head as best I could through all of the phases.  The funny thing was, I was too successful.  I got to work and I couldn't turn it off-- it actually got a bit creepy, and I've been afraid to try it again.



I go through heavy Indian binges, and then back off again.  It depends on my mood.  But there is something a good Alap can do to me that I really can't find anywhere else in music.  I think it is the purest form of improv there is.

I often hope for the alap to last as long as possible and often could do without the rest :-)

[bwv 1080]

One thing I find interesting is that Western beginners have the most trouble adjusting to the Alap, and often need to skip ahead.  I've reached the point where the Alap is my favorite part, and I feel cheated if it gives way too quickly to the later movements.   

yes, I have recordings of 20-40 minute alaps on  pentatonic raags like Malkauns or Megh

thats 5 notes with a typical range of one and a half octaves

its amazing when done well