20th Century Music Recommendation Needed

[Brian]

Random - at times adventurous and idiosyncratic - recommendations:

Bartok: The Miraculous Mandarin
Busoni: Doctor Faust and the Piano Concerto
Julian Carrillo: Christopher Columbus Prelude
Karl Amadeus Hartmann: Symphonies VI-VIII
Charles Ives: Robert Browning Overture, Holidays Symphony
Gustav Mahler: Symphonies V-X
Krzysztof Penderecki: Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima
Sergei Prokofiev: Symphonies II - III, Scythian Suite, Chout
Arnold Schoenberg: Pelleas und Melisande, Five Pieces for Orchestra
Alexander Zemlinsky: Six Songs for Orchestra

I think I could benefit from listening, in full, to this list. I've only heard 6 works on it, and the suite from a seventh (Mandarin).

[knight66]

The entire Bartok piece is terrific; there is a good cheap Naxos recording.

I got the impression from the opening poster that he was looking for works that would not frighten the horses. Karl, your list is beyond esoteric! Were you being serious?

Mike

[karlhenning]

. . . but just in case we're open to chamber music:

Stravinsky, L'histoire du soldat, complete (1918)
Hindemith, Konzertmusik, Opus 49 for piano, brass & two harps (1930)
Messiaen, Quatuor pour la fin du temps (1941)
Bartók, Sonata for violin unaccompanied (1943)
Prokofiev, Sonata for violin & piano in f minor, Opus  80 (1938-1946)

Esoteric, Mike? Four of them are 'mainstream' 20th-c.; the Hindemith is a piece one needs to dig for, I grant, but in idiom, it's as clean Hindemith as one could ask for. I'd play it for my mum.

[knight66]

Karl, To someone who says that he does not know any 20 century music, I think it basically perverse to offer that specific Stravinsky piece. Surely the Messiaen is an acquired taste? Apart from the first and third, I can't recall when I saw any of them on concert programmes.

These are important pieces, but how would you claim they sit within the terms of the original enquiry?

Mike

[some guy]

Wow. That post would take more unpacking than I have the time or inclination for. Suffice it to say that it seems perverse (!) to protest Karl's list so vehemently.

Besides, if the OP doesn't go for any of Karl's suggestions, well, too bad for the OP is all I can say.

And what thread anywhere, ever, on any board, has ever stayed rigorously to the terms of the original post? (And who would even want that?)

[Sid]

Some good lists here. I think Apollon's selection lists some works that are basically essential chamber works of the c20th.

I like how James included Bernstein & Gershwin. & some of Les Six - not all c20th music has to be "serious."

I'd also add film composers, who have been many people's first or main exposure to classical music - if you accept film music as classical music. Guys like Nino Rota, John Williams and Howard Shore.

& one I'd add (here's me getting on my hobby horse) is Piazzolla - any number of his tangos & songs, he also composed multi movement works like The Four Seasons, Bandoneon Concerto & the Maria de Buenos Aires Suite. His music is an eclectic blend of not only the tango, but jazz, Baroque counterpoint and avant-garde techniques. He's good as a kind of "one stop shop" for many things that had gone before in the history of classical music...

[knight66]

Wow. That post would take more unpacking than I have the time or inclination for. Suffice it to say that it seems perverse (!) to protest Karl's list so vehemently.

Besides, if the OP doesn't go for any of Karl's suggestions, well, too bad for the OP is all I can say.

And what thread anywhere, ever, on any board, has ever stayed rigorously to the terms of the original post? (And who would even want that?)

Oh, I see, I thought it was about being helpful. My mistake.

Mike

[Sid]

I wouldn't, might as well expose someone to the real stuff and avoid the film PAP. Do not equate a Poulenc, Gershwin or Bernstein anywhere near cheap film music, that would be an epic failure of cogency on your part.

(if you're out there jowol, obviously more excitement has just entered your life, i have dropped some more gold for you to gather; have fun!!!)

Obviously I disagree. For example, would you call something like Nino Rota's music for Fellini's "La Strada" as "cheap?" It has it's place in today's concert halls just as the symphonies and concertos do. I have a recording on EMI with the Monte Carlo Orchestra under Gianluigi Gelmetti. What about Bernstein's music to "On the Waterfront" which is considered by many in the game to be one of his finest works? I have heard Bernstein's own account with the NYPO under the composer, as well as the recording made by his protege, Marin Alsop.

Why do you think orchestras and conductors of that calibre who play "cheap" rubbish music? I could give you many other examples of film music that is just as good as the types of music you value. But obviously your view is founded more on ideology than common sense, so I won't bother wasting my time. You (& most others here) have far more knowledge of classical music in general than me, I'm not disputing that, I just disagree strongly with your reasoning...

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I'd also add film composers, who have been many people's first or main exposure to classical music - if you accept film music as classical music. Guys like Nino Rota, John Williams and Howard Shore.

I wasn't sure if people would start bitching about movie composers, so I didn't mention any... otherwise I would have totally selected some, especially Ennio Morricone. When you listen to his music, you just know that these movies are going to kick ass.

[karlhenning]

Oh, I see, I thought it was about being helpful. My mistake.

Mike

Gosh, I hadn't thought my little list was other than helpful, Mike! Again, apart from the Hindemith (a piece which it is something of a stretch for me to regard as a horse-frightener), I've heard all the pieces on that list live. (In fact, there was one year alone when I heard the Prokofiev sonata — another piece to which I almost cannot conceive of any listener objecting — performed live at three separate concerts.)

[Sid]

My point exactly.

No, I don't think so. Your point was that film music is rubbish. Although I don't know (& don't really have a great desire to know) thousands of compositions by thousands of composers & constantly rank & compare them, I'd like to think that I have the basics of critical thinking & more importantly the ability to enjoy & appreciate a wide variety of music, be it classical or not, so called "high" or "low" art. Knowledge is one thing, but being able to question one's own ideologies is another. I respect your's and other's knowledge of classical music, I basically come here to learn. But negating people's opinions based on their experience (which can be just as valid as those of the more experted people) doesn't make sense to me. I can think of a lot of "serious" composers who wrote film music, and it's usually of a reasonably high quality. Not everyone comes to classical through the route/s people like you came.

BTW, you mention Les Six. Actually, one of the members, Georges Auric was a prolific film composer, a lot of his best works were in that genre. Film music has now entered the concert halls, bastions of "high art." Recently, Howard Shore's Oscar winning score for the Lord of the Rings trilogy is being performed in concert halls all over the globe (including here in Sydney coming up in May this year). Anyway, I won't waste my time with you, because obviously not only is film music "rubbish" but so are the opinions of the mere small fry like myself (this is the subtext of your short reply)...

[Cato]

No, I don't think so. Your point was that film music is rubbish. Although I don't know (& don't really have a great desire to know) thousands of compositions by thousands of composers & constantly rank & compare them, I'd like to think that I have the basics of critical thinking & more importantly the ability to enjoy & appreciate a wide variety of music, be it classical or not, so called "high" or "low" art. Knowledge is one thing, but being able to question one's own ideologies is another. I respect your's and other's knowledge of classical music, I basically come here to learn. But negating people's opinions based on their experience (which can be just as valid as those of the more experted people) doesn't make sense to me. I can think of a lot of "serious" composers who wrote film music, and it's usually of a reasonably high quality. Not everyone comes to classical through the route/s people like you came.

BTW, you mention Les Six. Actually, one of the members, Georges Auric was a prolific film composer, a lot of his best works were in that genre. Film music has now entered the concert halls, bastions of "high art." Recently, Howard Shore's Oscar winning score for the Lord of the Rings trilogy is being performed in concert halls all over the globe (including here in Sydney coming up in May this year). Anyway, I won't waste my time with you, because obviously not only is film music "rubbish" but so are the opinions of the mere small fry like myself (this is the subtext of your short reply)...

Sid:

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtness!   

Patrick Doyle: Henry V
Philip Glass: The Illusionist
Bernard Herrmann: Psycho, Citizen Kane, Mysterious Island, On Dangerous Ground
James Horner: Braveheart
Gottfried Huppertz: Metropolis, Die Nibelungen
Jerome Moross: The Big Country
Alfred Newman: How The West Was Won
Thomas Newman: Fried Green Tomatoes
Sergei Prokofiev: Ivan the Terrible, Alexander Nevsky
Miklos Rozsa: Ben-Hur, El Cid, The Lost Weekend, Spellbound
Dmitri Shostakovich: The Gadfly
Max Steiner: King Kong

[Sid]

Excellent list, Cato, many of which (I'd hazard a guess) are really good "20th Century Music Recommendations." A question we can ask is, given the calibre of names on your list, would guys like Mozart & Beethoven be writing film music if they were alive today? The answer is yes, because many of these "giants" of classical music wrote significant amounts of "incidental music" to plays. As a matter of fact, yours is an excellent list for people like me to begin exploring as well - I've only scratched the surface, but I've found much pleasure & relevance in the film music that I've heard so far. Eg. my favourite work by Walton is his Henry V, and the other scores he produced for Olivier are top-notch as well...

[karlhenning]

...
Dmitri Shostakovich: The Gadfly
...

Though I should still speak yet more highly of the scores for the Kozintsev Shakespeare films.

Patrick Doyle's scores for Henry V, Dead Again & Much Ado About Nothing are all very well done.

I need to pay more attention to his score in Hamlet . . . .

[Henk]

No film should be mentioned in this thread, because we're really addressing an art that focuses on the music first and foremost  ... The Gadfly is not top five,  not of the century, not even amoungst Shosta's own output!

You're irritating James, and you know.

Film music is music, for sure the music mentioned here. We can discuss about other film music, but the point you try to make doesn't make sense.

Henk

[Sid]

No film should be mentioned in this thread, because we're really addressing an art that focuses on the music first and foremost...

This is an "all or nothing" point of view. When approaching c20th music, it is valuable for a newcomer to explore all of the genres to some degree & that includes film music, as well as orchestral, chamber, choral, opera, etc. I think that your idea of what constitutes "art music" is quite limited, and you have a tendency to think that everyone approaches classical music in the same way that you do.

I never mentioned Les Six, go back and show me where I did. And give it time, you will come around to understanding the differences between starting someone off with the best that the Art music legacy has to offer and shit that isn't even art music to begin with (i.e. perhaps mildly fun but light low-mileage film ephemeral subservient backdrop.)

Ok my mistake, you listed Poulenc & Satie (who inspired Les Six) No need to be this confrontative. I disagree that film music is "ephemeral subservient backdrop." The best film music is integral the film as a complete work of art. Walton's Henry V which I mentioned above is a good example of this.

The Gadfly is not top five,  not of the century, not even amoungst Shosta's own output!

.

Yet the "Romance" from The Gadfly is probably still his most popular work, and the thing that some or even many people are familiar with first before they delve into his other works...

[Sid]

Sid your logic is greatly flawed my friend; did the two long lists that I provided in this thread earlier seem "limited" .. ?

I'm not saying you're 100% limited, but we all have our limitations, which is fine. Your lists are fine. But judging from mine and other's discussion regarding including film music in these "recommendations," I think that there must be quite a few people out there who would urge newcomers to c20th music to explore the repertoire across the board - including as many aspects/types as possible. The OP mentioned some c20th orchestral pieces s/he knows, so extending from that, film music is relevant as a lot of it is orchestral. But I think Apollon's chamber list is also good. Anyhow, this argument is getting a bit academic now that the OP doesn't seem to have checked in here for a while...

[Grazioso]

I wouldn't, might as well expose someone to the real stuff and avoid the film PAP. Do not equate a Poulenc, Gershwin or Bernstein anywhere near cheap film music, that would be an epic failure of cogency on your part.

Pfff!

PS Re: Bernstein and cheap film music, ever hear of this

[Grazioso]

Re: film music vis-a-vis the original post, I'd recommend looking into it for the following reasons:

* film is one of the most substantial new art forms of the 20th century; to ignore film music would be like ignoring ballet music or incidental theater music from earlier centuries.
* numerous big-name classical composers wrote for film: Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bernstein, Copland, Korngold, Vaughan Williams, Arnold, Walton, etc. No point in arbitrarily excluding part of their work from investigation. (Similarly, composers known mostly for their work in film have written for the concert hall: Rota, Hermann, Rosza, etc.)
* based on the OP's posts here and elsewhere, accessibility seems to be important, and a lot of orchestral film scores of the period were written in relatively accessible styles

[some guy]

I have a problem with using "accessibility" as a touchstone. It seems always to involve privileging a certain audience, an audience that's not terribly sophisticated (experienced) or adventuresome. I'm not sure why that audience gets to be privileged, for one. I'm not sure that any audience should be privileged.

In the eighties, when I had been plunging into all types of twentieth century music, I found Scelsi, for whatever reason, to be not at all accessible. And a little later, I found Eliane Radigue and Phill Niblock equally inaccessible.

At the same time, I found Diamanda Galas and Luciano Berio and Gordon Mumma to be quite accessible.

Which is only to say that "it depends" is the key to how "accessibility" works. And unless you're committed to privileging one particular type of listener, then the question must always be "accessible to whom?"

And if some of these recommendations have seemed to push the boundaries of what the OP apparently finds accessible, that seems something to be applauded rather than not.