Bach on the piano

[jwinter]

... I tend to think, that I also prefer his WTC and Goldberg´s to any other piano version I have heard...

Well, that got my attention.  Thanks for the thoughtful review.

[Marc]

Well, some considerations after having traversed Ivo Janssen´s 20CD "complete" Bach keyboard music set.
[review]

Thanks for this very informative review, Premont.
I haven't made up my mind about purchasing it, even though Que's link is tempting (thanks to you, too).
Experience of the last, say, 5 to 10 years has proven that I only very very rarely grab for Bach on piano discs, even if they're quality material.
Apart from that, it's always a pleasure to read your opinions on Bach, baroque and Ludwig Van The Man.

[prémont]

Experience of the last, say, 5 to 10 years has proven that I only very very rarely grab for Bach on piano discs, even if they're quality material.

This has also been my experience from the first days of my interest for Bach. But while traversing Ivo Janssen´s set I found myself enjoying his interpretation again and again, so maybe I shall make a relative exception as to his Bach. For comparison I have recently listened to Rübsam´s Bach piano discs (French suites), and even here I was pleasantly surprised of his expressive playing, so I obviously listen to him too rarely.

[prémont]

Thanks for the thoughtful review.

I can´t but add that this 20 CD box is a steal for the cost of 50 Euros.

[Clever Hans]

I can´t but add that this 20 CD box is a steal for the cost of 50 Euros.

I understand he is self-published. Is he especially known in the Netherlands and Germany, or also elsewhere in Europe?

I'm wondering if this is another anglophone conspiracy.

Interesting that he uses a Yamaha CF III, like Bavouzet in his Haydn series.

[Mandryka]

I had forgotten to mention that Paul Jacobs plays a Bach Busoni Prelude and Fugue from WTC very well on one of his live Arbiter records. Sara Davies Buechner has recorded some of the WTC too --I've just started to explore her Goldbergs on spotify, and first reactions are that it's much more interesting than  Klaus Tanski's.

[SonicMan46]

I can´t but add that this 20 CD box is a steal for the cost of 50 Euros.

Premont - thanks for the excellent review on the Janssen box - available at MDT for $62 (my usual 'across the pond' ordering site) - will need to add some more items to justify the shipping but looks like a good deal to me!  Dave

[Mandryka]

MUCH, much pleasure. In fact, they [Bach's concerto transcriptions] are the core of my favorite recording. (Not favorite Bach recording, but altogether favorite recording.) -- concertos italiens, with Alexandre Tharaud on Harmonia Mundi. Un-be-lievably gorgeous. Made 2005 (gosh, time flies) a great year.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-58.html
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html

Concerning the concerto transcriptions, I'm not a big fan and definitely prefer Bach's Toccatas.

I'm not a big fan either but I like Tharaud's stength and I was very surprised by how beautiful his performance  of  BWV 981 is.

Concerning Alessandro Marcello's D Minor concerto, Tharaud plays Bach's transcription. There's another  transcription by Edwin Fischer -- EF recorded it himself:

http://www.youtube.com/v/x84BHH3MUEE&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLD57661463948C6B2

There's a little touch of genius here at the very end.

There's a similar concept CD to Tharaud's from Katsaris, called Italian Journey. Has anyone heard it?

[bumtz]

I can´t but add that this 20 CD box is a steal for the cost of 50 Euros.

You can buy it at newly opened amazon.es for €37: http://www.amazon.es/Bach-J-S-Complete-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B004X28O7W/ref=lh_ni_t

My choice for Bach on piano is Gould (the earlier the better). Looking forward to hearing Gavrilov's versions too. Koroliov is good too. Hated Perahia. Got bored by Hewitt (know her Goldbergs only). 

[Coopmv]

Premont, very interesting and based on my own first impressions when sampling, I'm actually not that surprised.

I'm repeating the link to jpc (click picture) for those interested:


                     
Q

Still sitting on the fence since I essentially do not know anything about Ivo Janssen ...

[Josquin des Prez]

I agree so far that I find the piano relatively unsuited for Bach´s music. Though I think the principal problem is on the part of the performers, who choose a relatively unsuited instrument for Bach´s music - and of course they do so because they want to add romantic flavour.

And when they do not add romantic flavor, but still attempt to be pianistic, such as the case of Feltsman, or Koriolov, they are called vulgar. There really is no way to win this for a pianist.

[Mandryka]

And when they do not add romantic flavor, but still attempt to be pianistic, such as the case of Feltsman, or Koriolov, they are called vulgar. There really is no way to win this for a pianist.

Premont is more than able to answer for himself, of course. This morning I listened to some Koroliov and Sokolov and some Janssen. (I've got a stinking cold and nothing else to do  )

Premont thought that Koriolov is almost vulgar because of the way he heard the dynamics:

Koroliov I find almost vulgar with his stereotyped use of dynamics. Every Cpt. begins pp and ends fff. He has not discovered, that the climax is written into the music.

But that's  not quite right. If you listen to Koroliov's cpt 1 then there is a dynamic climax in the middle, andother loud passage before the end, but the end itself is hushed.

That's not too far from the way Janssen uses dynamic variation -- Janssen uses less extreme dynamics than Koriolov.

http://www.youtube.com/v/G5xAo3KAFgU

Janssen uses more hesitations  to draw the listener's attention to parts of the music. I suppose that relates his style to performance practice in Bach's time and therefore is more tasteful and more timeless than the style which uses dynamic variation more than agogics. We've been head to head about this before on this forum -- I just don't see that this is a valid argument as it stands. There are enormous suppressed premises to do with what the function of a performance is (to take us into Bach's world? to make accessible a timeless abstract object, the composition, which Bach created? to communicate the response of the performer to the score?)

There are other things to say of course. Koroliov's sonority is more burnished than janssens (good thing or bad thing?); Koroliov's staccato/legato articulation is unque (and I think suits this music well); Sokolov is very special at the counterpoint -- a sort of magician at making the voices interleave and relate to each other; Koroliov seems to be slightly better than Janssen at giving the voices equal status, but there's not much in it.

[Marc]

Mandryka, thanks for your observations!
Btw, a rather impressive upload from Janssen's 'Art'. Great built-up.

[SonicMan46]

Still sitting on the fence since I essentially do not know anything about Ivo Janssen ...

Hi Stuart - well I picked up that box from MDT and am just over half through the 20 discs - excellent price!  I'm really enjoying his performances and he is consistently good in these varied works; for those wanting Bach on the piano and like 'one-stop' shopping, this box certainly is a competitive consideration -   Dave

[prémont]

But that's  not quite right. If you listen to Koroliov's cpt 1 then there is a dynamic climax in the middle, andother loud passage before the end, but the end itself is hushed.

That's not too far from the way Janssen uses dynamic variation -- Janssen uses less extreme dynamics than Koriolov.

But you are only comparing Cpt I which has got the "anticlimatic" coda (after the pauses) which Bach added later. Try to listen to Koroliov´s way of playing the other Cpt.´s.

[Coopmv]

Hi Stuart - well I picked up that box from MDT and am just over half through the 20 discs - excellent price!  I'm really enjoying his performances and he is consistently good in these varied works; for those wanting Bach on the piano and like 'one-stop' shopping, this box certainly is a competitive consideration -   Dave

Looks like MDT has better price on this set than jpc.  2 orders just arrived from MDT today but it is too late and I am too tired to open the boxes ...

[Mandryka]

But you are only comparing Cpt I which has got the "anticlimatic" coda (after the pauses) which Bach added later. Try to listen to Koroliov´s way of playing the other Cpt.´s.

I chose Cpt 1 because the Janssen cpt 1 was on youtube of course. And yes it does have that coda. But I still think your comment is unfair.

Koroliov I find almost vulgar with his stereotyped use of dynamics. Every Cpt. begins pp and ends fff. He has not discovered, that the climax is written into the music.

In Cpt 10 there are several forte passages in the middle of the music, and the whole piece ends pretty softly. Cpt 12 begins loudly and has a beautiful softer central passage.  The Canon at the 12th begins loudly too, and gets louder and louder. The augmented canon in inverted motion starts softy and ends softly and has it's dynamic peak about three quarters through.

I just think that he's a better musician than your comment suggests. His dynamic range is  quite wide. That could be a problem, I suppose, if you think that dynamic restraint is a good idea here because the original instruments were dynamically retrained. But that's a different point, and not one I would want to argue for myself.

[Mandryka]

I've been listening to Korliov play the French Suites. I think this one should go to  the top of the pile.

Everything is serene, and everything sounds very natural. The dynamics are reduced and restrained -- nothing like the dynamic range you find in his AoF.

The allemandes and sarabandes  are very moving -- but he never overplays the nostalgic or dramatic side to this music. The fast dances  are impeccable, laser sharp.

There's no swagger in Koroliov's French suites. Everything is very concentrated. That touched me a lot.

[PaulSC]

Koroliov is my favorite pianist for the French Suites as well. I like how he achieves beauty of tone without any fussiness, and the sense of phrasing and dialogue is compelling in his performance.

[PaulSC]

Certainly. In my wiev the tuning is part of the sound (style) of the instrument.

Sure, fair enough. All of this — the tuning, the choice of instrument from such a wide range of options, and the challenge of finding the right performance approach based on that choice — is what makes me roll my eyes when I hear Angela Hewitt lecture audiences about the greater number of interpretive choices faced by pianists versus harpsichordist. (Did I see you've recently purchased her Bach cycle? I sincerely admire your open-mindedness; for me, there is too much of a negative reaction at the gut level for me to give those recordings a fair chance right now.)