Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

The early quartets were a revelation to me too, amazing quality they have in abundance!

Well, it isn't something that I want to get into outside of Der Haus, but among Haydn scholars, there is a very sore spot which has to do with the perceived "evolution" of style and quality, as though there was conscious movement towards a goal of perfect Classicism. I think you will see that during my essays, I was extremely careful to avoid giving any impression that this perception was actual reality. It is something that we need to talk about, just not in a thread on recordings of the string quartets.

[DavidW]

I don't think Op 33 is really early, he has already written in his mature style since Op 20.  I really consider pre Op 20 his early string quartets, but that's just me.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't think Op 33 is really early, he has already written in his mature style since Op 20.  I really consider pre Op 20 his early string quartets, but that's just me.

9, 17 & 20 were written in consecutive years (1769-71). They are all about on the same level musically, IMO...

I guess if I had to say, I would call Op 1 & 2, composed by 1761, to be early works. But not early in the sense of musical maturity or skill or whatever you want to call it, just early in chronology.

[Karl Henning]

 Quote from: DavidW on Today at 05:23:12 PM

I don't think Op 33 is really early

 
Mind you, I used the comparative. They are certainly earlier than the other quartets I've heard : )

[DavidW]

9, 17 & 20 were written in consecutive years (1769-71). They are all about on the same level musically, IMO...

Well 9 and 17 are nice, I enjoy them but feel that 20 is a significant opus dwarfing the previous works.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well 9 and 17 are nice, I enjoy them but feel that 20 is a significant opus dwarfing the previous works.

Not really, he just was trying out some different stuff, like fugal sections. All the opuses are different in some ways and similar in others.

[mc ukrneal]

For those of you considering this box:


You may want to consider waiting for this:

MDT shows a release date of April 9.

[DavidW]

Not really, he just was trying out some different stuff, like fugal sections. All the opuses are different in some ways and similar in others.

Oh really?  Where exactly are the solo passages for cello in Op 9 and 17?  And the balance with the duets?  Op 20 elevated the string quartet to true chamber music where each instrument has it's chance to shine.  Yes of course 9 and 17 are close, but no cigar Op 20 is the threshold set.  In addition to being the complex and mature works, I personally feel that there is more emotional depth to the Op 20 works.

Even if you enjoy all three sets equally, I think you can be honest enough to admit that the Op 20 are the greater works.  This is the difference between divertimenti and the modern string quartet.

[Leo K.]

Oh really?  Where exactly are the solo passages for cello in Op 9 and 17?  And the balance with the duets?  Op 20 elevated the string quartet to true chamber music where each instrument has it's chance to shine.  Yes of course 9 and 17 are close, but no cigar Op 20 is the threshold set.  In addition to being the complex and mature works, I personally feel that there is more emotional depth to the Op 20 works.

Even if you enjoy all three sets equally, I think you can be honest enough to admit that the Op 20 are the greater works.  This is the difference between divertimenti and the modern string quartet.

Perhaps it is easy to underestimate the Op.9 and 17. Solo passages for cello does not necessarily make Op.20 superior, but reveals a different approach that changed the whole genre. Haydn's piano trios don't usually free the cello from it's accompaniment role, but the trios are still highly regarded masterpieces of chamber music. 

[DavidW]

Perhaps it is easy to underestimate the Op.9 and 17. Solo passages for cello does not necessarily make Op.20 superior, but reveals a different approach that changed the whole genre. Haydn's piano trios don't usually free the cello from it's accompaniment role, but the trios are still highly regarded masterpieces of chamber music. 

You're looking at just one of multiple key elements (you're misrepresenting my post) that show that each instrument has their own voice and there is a balance between all four that introduce more complexity than was expected from the genre previously.  I'm not saying that makes the gulf wide between 9-17 and 20 but it does introduce a significant gap between them. 

[Leo K.]

You're looking at just one of multiple key elements (you're misrepresenting my post) that show that each instrument has their own voice and there is a balance between all four that introduce more complexity than was expected from the genre previously.  I'm not saying that makes the gulf wide between 9-17 and 20 but it does introduce a significant gap between them.

Thanks for the clarification, sorry about the generalisation I made, you are right that there is a gap (not wide but it is surely there) between Op.20 and his earlier quartets.

Op.33 is yet another interesting gap from Op.20, Op.33 as a set appears more "flashy and stylistic," or perhaps entertaining, but I think that quality also depends on the ensemble playing them, I prefer the Solomon's account (sounding rustic and down to earth) but eagerly await to hear what the London Haydn Quartet will do with Op.33.

[Gurn Blanston]

I would like to move this conversation over to the Haus, since it will range a bit more widely than just the string quartets, and it is certainly not related to "great recordings" either.

Other shared features of Op 9, 17 & 20 are things like harmonic schemes and development of motives. As you mention, instrumentation is only part of it.

Late in life, Haydn (in a conversation that I partially related in Essay #50) to Reicha that in the earliest part of the 1770's he completely relearned how to write music, by studying and practicing. He incorporated this as part of a dictum on the value of doing something musical every day. But a historian took it seriously and did what biblical historians do all the time; he looked for evidence that there was a change in Haydn's music at this same time that would reflect his new learning. And one of the examples he came up with (he pretty much validated the story, between the string quartets and the late Stürm und Dräng symphonies) was the fugal finales of the 3 Op 20 quartets that have them. So certainly that was an advance, and directly related to his ongoing growth. But the advance is in the means of expression, not in the musicality of the content.

[DavidW]

Thanks for the clarification, sorry about the generalisation I made, you are right that there is a gap (not wide but it is surely there) between Op.20 and his earlier quartets.

Op.33 is yet another interesting gap from Op.20, Op.33 as a set appears more "flashy and stylistic," or perhaps entertaining, but I think that quality also depends on the ensemble playing them, I prefer the Solomon's account (sounding rustic and down to earth) but eagerly await to hear what the London Haydn Quartet will do with Op.33.

I agree about Op 33, it makes it rather unique among his string quartets.  I think that there is depth to these galant stylized works but they seem to be polarizing works.

[Leo K.]

I agree about Op 33, it makes it rather unique among his string quartets.  I think that there is depth to these galant stylized works but they seem to be polarizing works.

I'm glad you mentioned the term "galant" as for some reason, I didn't think of that term in relation to Op.33...you are right, they are galant stylized and there is depth to them, underneath the galant.

[Gurn Blanston]

Listed between 70 and 80€ everywhere

I haven't heard this set yet, although it has been reported to me that it is likely to not be congruent with my tastes, so the likelihood of me spending 80€ to find out is slim, I'm afraid. On the plus side, frequently when there are reissues like this then the market for overpriced collectors items takes a hit, which always pleases me.

[DavidW]

Anyone that wants to hear the set without breaking the piggy bank... it's on spotify.  Meanwhile I've been listening to the Kodaly's perform Op 33 today.

[Leon]

You're looking at just one of multiple key elements (you're misrepresenting my post) that show that each instrument has their own voice and there is a balance between all four that introduce more complexity than was expected from the genre previously.  I'm not saying that makes the gulf wide between 9-17 and 20 but it does introduce a significant gap between them.

I've been reading (rather sporadically) Hans Keller's book on the quartets and you agree with him.  Aside from one quartet from Op. 9 (the D minor) he considers Op. 20 to be the beginning of Haydn's "great" quartets.

While the other opuses [sic] (again, this is Keller's thesis) are certainly well worth listening to and have many great things about them, Keller considers them less an achievement than the works from Op. 20 onward.

[Conor71]

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 03, 2012, 04:49:46 PM

For those of you considering this box:
>

You may want to consider waiting for this:

MDT shows a release date of April 9.

Oh dear, I just bought the first set and did'nt know about the (probably a lot cheaper) re-issue coming out! 

Never mind! - I can report that its a great set for those that like modern interpretations and the performances and sound are both wonderful!

[SonicMan46]

You may want to consider waiting for this:

MDT shows a release date of April 9.

Oh dear, I just bought the first set and did'nt know about the (probably a lot cheaper) re-issue coming out!  ..............

Well, just checked MDT for the price on the upcoming release shown above - converts to about $80 USA dollars - current offering for the older set is $88 using Amazon Prime - NOW, will this newer release hit the Amazon MP at possibly $60 or less?  I'll wait to see -

[Antoine Marchand]

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 03, 2012, 04:49:46 PM

For those of you considering this box:
>

You may want to consider waiting for this:

MDT shows a release date of April 9.

Oh dear, I just bought the first set and did'nt know about the (probably a lot cheaper) re-issue coming out! 

Never mind! - I can report that its a great set for those that like modern interpretations and the performances and sound are both wonderful!

Hi, Conor. I have listened to some excerpts and the sound quality seems a bit reverberant. I have also read some reviews pointing this out. What do you think about this?