Showdown In America: Copland vs. Ives vs. Gershwin

[Mirror Image]

Who was the most significant of these three American composers?

[Karl Henning]

Interesting question!

[Mirror Image]

I voted for Ives because he was really the first American composer to establish an authentic American sound. Copland and Gershwin were important too, but Ives's innovations predate Copland and Gerswhin. Ives took all kinds of desperate styles of music and filtered them through a Modernistic blender and you ended up with these gorgeous collages of sounds ranging from demonic band marches to a lonely hymn melody being splattered across a few sparse, dissonant chords. The man was ahead of his time.

[Mirror Image]

Interesting question!

Thought you might like it, Karl.

[DavidW]

I voted for Copland.  Ives might be our greatest, but I hear much more of America in Copland.

[Mirror Image]

I voted for Copland.  Ives might be our greatest, but I hear much more of America in Copland.

Copland wrote good music, but so did Gershwin and Ives. I can see why Copland would be more popular, especially with listeners, but I don't see how he is more significant especially if we put all three composers into historical perspectives.

[Karl Henning]

Each of the three is significant, but (of course) in largely different ways. How do you 'weigh' the three for comparison?

[Ataraxia]

None are my favorites but I'll give it to Copey. 

[Mirror Image]

Each of the three is significant, but (of course) in largely different ways. How do you 'weigh' the three for comparison?

I would say Ives for his innovations in polytonality, the use of tone clusters, and quarter tones. Like, for example, according to Wikipedia his Symphony No. 4 was written in 1916! Central Park in the Dark was written in 1906! Wow....so far ahead of its time.

[mc ukrneal]

I would say Ives for his innovations in polytonality, the use of tone clusters, and quarter tones. Like, for example, according to Wikipedia his Symphony No. 4 was written in 1916! Central Park in the Dark was written in 1906! Wow....so far ahead of its time.

As mentioned, depends what you mean by significant. Ives seems to have had comparatively little influence on his contemporaries. Many of his works were not even performed in his lifetime. An interesting aside, Copland was one of his supporters. It is hard to compare him against anyone really - rather unique in many ways.

[Mirror Image]

As mentioned, depends what you mean by significant. Ives seems to have had comparatively little influence on his contemporaries. Many of his works were not even performed in his lifetime. An interesting aside, Copland was one of his supporters. It is hard to compare him against anyone really - rather unique in many ways.

Actually, for me, it's not hard to see who is more significant. Mahler's music wasn't well-known during his lifetime but look how important it is now. He's now seen as a crucial link between late-Romanticism and Modernism. So, it's not so much how they affected their contemporaries, but rather how they are viewed from a historical perspective.

[DavidW]

As mentioned, depends what you mean by significant. Ives seems to have had comparatively little influence on his contemporaries. Many of his works were not even performed in his lifetime. An interesting aside, Copland was one of his supporters. It is hard to compare him against anyone really - rather unique in many ways.

He is rather like Schubert in that regard.  btw I think that Gershwin has tremendous historical significance for bridging the classical and popular divide.

[madaboutmahler]

Voted for Gershwin as his is the music I enjoy most out of these composers. Much of it I love very much!

Copland would come next, with Ives rather far behind. I am not the biggest fan of his music from what I heard, maybe I should give it another go some time in the future though.

[springrite]

I was going to vote for... Feldman or ... Lou Harrison...

[Mirror Image]

I voted for Gershwin largely because I like his music the best of these three.

Arnold, I'm not sure why you deleted your last post, but you said you didn't think Mahler was of much significance historically. I have to whole-heartedly disagree with your statement. History has been more kind to Mahler than it has Webern or even Schoenberg for that matter. Not to discount Schoenberg's music, but what is Schoenberg mostly remembered for? Not his music, but his musical theories. What is Berg remembered most for? His opera Wozzeck. What is Webern most known for? Confusing the hell out of everybody pretty much. But seriously, Mahler was remembered for his music, which isn't often said of the Second Viennese School, who, by the way, admired Mahler.

[Bogey]

Copland for me.  This should reopen the corral, Karl.

[madaboutmahler]

Arnold, I'm not sure why you deleted your last post, but you said you didn't think Mahler was of much significance historically. I have to whole-heartedly disagree with your statement. History has been more kind to Mahler than it has Webern or even Schoenberg for that matter. Not to discount Schoenberg's music, but what is Schoenberg mostly remembered for? Not his music, but his musical theories. What is Berg remembered most for? His opera Wozzeck. What is Webern most known for? Confusing the hell out of everybody pretty much. But seriously, Mahler was remembered for his music, which isn't often said of the Second Viennese School, who, by the way, admired Mahler.

Good to see you defending Mahler, John!

[Mirror Image]

I changed my mind about that post since it was not the kind of post I usualy make because I do not wish to contribute to a discusison of "what composer is considered the most significant".  To me this is almost entierly subjective unless you define which technical aspects you wish to compare (a discussion I am even less interested in having).   Different composers will be significant to different people for personal or even professional reasons, but which do not necessarily add up to any kind of objective measure.  I am much more interested in hearing people say they like the music of "X" and hear a bit about why they do.  Sometimes it is a memory from childhood sometimes it has nothing to do with the music itself but some other association. 

So I intended to delete both my posts since I did not want to see this thread appear when I click on "new posts in threads to which I've contributed".

I'm just responding to your comment. That's all I was doing. I challenged your opinion, but I understand you don't want to have the discussion. It would be rather pointless because Mahler's importance has been documented for quite some time now that his body of work really speaks for itself.

[Mirror Image]

Good to see you defending Mahler, John!

I was getting ready to hurl a Mahler hammer at Arnold but it's good to see he backed down.

[TheGSMoeller]

Although Ives is by far my preferred composer of these three, and Copland is more well-known in concert halls and recordings, I'm inclined to say that Gershwin played a more significant role in American music.