Showdown In America: Copland vs. Ives vs. Gershwin

[Mirror Image]

Ah, well, there's always that : )

What eyeresist said is he had the impression that Ives is respected but not loved in the way Copland and Gershwin are. How is this not an assumption?

[Karl Henning]

Because he speaks of an impression, rather than making an assertion. (An example of an assertion would be your idea that Schnittke's only goal was "shock value" ; )

FWIW, my impression is in line with eyeresist's – that is, that as a matter of a listening consensus (any given individual possibly excepted) Ives's music does not command the degree of affection accorded to either Copland's or Gershwin's.  And, so far as I understand the composer, I think Ives would have been okay with that.

[Mirror Image]

Because he speaks of an impression, rather than making an assertion. (An example of an assertion would be your idea that Schnittke's only goal was "shock value" ; )

FWIW, my impression is in line with eyeresist's – that is, that as a matter of a listening consensus (any given individual possibly excepted) Ives's music does not command the degree of affection accorded to either Copland's or Gershwin's.  And, so far as I understand the composer, I think Ives would have been okay with that.

Fair enough, I just thought the comment was a bit pretentious. That's all.

[eyeresist]

He edited his post, Karl.

No, I didn't - you can check!

Also, what Karl said - I was talking about my impression of the consensus (based partly on a recent Gramophone thread). I don't see how that is offensive or pretentious.

[Mirror Image]

No, I didn't - you can check!

Also, what Karl said - I was talking about my impression of the consensus (based partly on a recent Gramophone thread). I don't see how that is offensive or pretentious.

Oh, sorry, eyeresist. I forgot to take my meds when I wrote all of that. Please forgive my error of judgement.

[The Six]

I have the impression that Ives is respected, but not loved in the way Gershwin and Copland are.

I do remember a Peter Schickele quote where he said basically that the Ives's music is not as good as his ideas, or something to that effect.

Anyway, the list is
1. Ives
2. Barber
3. Gershwin

[eyeresist]

Oh, sorry, eyeresist. I forgot to take my meds when I wrote all of that. Please forgive my error of judgement.

It's alright, I know you have your moods   Plus I have the advantage in that I post from work during the day, while you are typing late into the night. Silly time difference.

[Mirror Image]

It's alright, I know you have your moods   Plus I have the advantage in that I post from work during the day, while you are typing late into the night. Silly time difference.

Yeah, I'm pretty moody. I'm like one of those 3D cards that, depending on the angle, you get a different picture or expression.

[Scion7]

NONE of the above.

Charles Griffes !!!!!!!!!!!   

[Karl Henning]

Talk about yer contrarians . . . .

[Sergeant Rock]

Although Ives is by far my preferred composer of these three, and Copland is more well-known in concert halls and recordings, I'm inclined to say that Gershwin played a more significant role in American music.

For that reason, yes, Gershwin definitely.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

Charles Griffes !!!!!!!!!!!   

I like Griffes. I only have one disc of his music and it's orchestral works with JoAnn Falletta conducting on Naxos. I really need to dig that disc out and listen to it again. I remember rather enjoying his unique style of Impressionism.

[Scion7]

Yeah, his stuff is pretty decent.   Naxos recorded him pretty extensively.  He's almost completely absent from concert hall.

I was being contrary, tho' - in terms of sheer impact, Gershwin is the man (and outside of Summertime covered by pop groups, and perhaps some Miles Davis, I don't listen to him); in terms of musical profundity - Ives, and in terms of "fun" - Copland!

[The Six]

When I first heard of Griffes he seemed right up my alley, but he came across as a low-rent Debussy trying too hard to be "impressionistic." For Debussy and others I think that style of music came naturally, with Griffes it feels forced, and forcing that style just doesn't work.

[Leo K.]

This was a hard decision! All three are very special to me, equal in my mind for what each was going for in their art.

I chose Ives, but it is a subjective decision as he is indeed one of my life heroes. I love not just his music, but also his philosophy, ideas, writings, and way of life. I understand and take into consideration that he was a complex individual and it is impossible to pin him down. I deeply enjoyed the interesting consideration that Eliot Carter and later, Maynard Solomon, brought to the table, the thesis being Ives redid his scores to add dissonance and so forth. Regardless of what really happened, this argument has built a new road of debate on the dating of his works, a study that only serves to illuminate Ives the artist and musician.